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No salary wastes everyone's time

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Re: No salary wastes everyone's time

#51

Post by SergeAx »

schwartzworld wrote: post #45
jcpsimmons wrote: post #22

Eloquently put. The last time I was on the market I didn’t apply to a single company that didn’t list salary - every time I’ve done that their pitch was underwhelming. To those saying “there’s more than salary” - that’s a privileged take. I hate to use that word but it’s appropriate here. Salary ONLY MEANS being able to put a roof over your family’s head and feed them.

There _is_ more than salary, but most of it would be classified as "nice-to-haves". Would I take an offer that wasn't the highest one I got if I thought the WLB or culture was better? Probably, but there's a limit. $10k less for a better WLB, sure. $50k less? Probably not.

With this line of thoughts one should've joined a blockchain/ICO/NFT/web3 scam. They were used to be 50-100% above the market.

Re: No salary wastes everyone's time

#52

Post by SergeAx »

iExploder wrote: post #37
hakunin wrote: post #27

This is probably going to be controversial. I find salary to be really weird for many reasons. One of them is that I just can't imagine a sustainable world where salary is proactively offered, raised, etc. I think it necessarily must be negotiated. I say this as a person who spent most of my 20y career negotiating for my salary and hating the process. It feels attractive on the surface to see a concrete number, kind…

> I think it necessarily must be negotiated it cant be negotiated fairly. negotiating works for people who are "in the know" and have been in the industry for years such as yourself. everyone else gets shit end of the stick, because the company is negotiation from position of power with much more knowledge. thats why some governments mandate minimum salary based on collective agreement or make it a law to provide sal…

And that is actually a problem for Austria. Ever heard about Austrian unicorn tech companies? Me neither.

Upd: I actually checked, there are 6 (six) unicorns in Austria. But no one ever heard of them and you never figure out what are they doing.

Re: No salary wastes everyone's time

#53

Post by SergeAx »

hitsurume wrote: post #42
hakunin wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see your point, but not sure if a number up front would be honesty, seems more of a gamble. They need to find a number that's not too low, not too high, for an abstract average human. I've managed to detect a lowball danger fairly early on in my past negotiations, but can't claim that it's easy. That said, maybe knowing their "hedge rate" is a useful tell, even if you don't entirely trust it.

Another better alternative is for these companies who can't afford the top talent, to train new talent (new grads, new juniors or people with less then 3 years experience) and upgrade them into where they need to be for the companies long term benefit. Also if you are going to say next that these people will just eventually leave, the number one reason people leqve a job is because of a shitty boss/manager. A company…

Training new talent requires a lot of time and resources, and, of course, some "old" talent with those time and resources on hands, except if you plan to outsource the training part.

Re: No salary wastes everyone's time

#54

Post by pg_1234 »

psyfi wrote: post #49

I tend to focus on what I can control: I cannot make the job market makers play fair(?) game, but I can reach to current and past employees on linkedin and get the salary range myself, and discard interviews where it is hard to negotiate to an acceptable salary. Also, some keywords in job ads shows more probabilty of lower than market salary, no company is really looking for someone who is looking for new challenges…

No need to source info through side channels.

A company that doesn't post a salary AND doesn't even give you a range when asked is a write-off.

They are either grossly incompetent and/or planning to exploit you from the get go.

Re: No salary wastes everyone's time

#55

Post by schwartzworld »

SergeAx wrote: post #51
schwartzworld wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There _is_ more than salary, but most of it would be classified as "nice-to-haves". Would I take an offer that wasn't the highest one I got if I thought the WLB or culture was better? Probably, but there's a limit. $10k less for a better WLB, sure. $50k less? Probably not.

With this line of thoughts one should've joined a blockchain/ICO/NFT/web3 scam. They were used to be 50-100% above the market.

It's not the worst idea. I build web UIs, I don't really care what product they support as long as it's not explicitly harming anyone.

But it's also missing the point. I apply for the jobs I want, I just don't want to apply for the ones that make below my bottom line.

Re: No salary wastes everyone's time

#56

Post by hakunin »

schwartzworld wrote: post #46
hakunin wrote: post #27

This is probably going to be controversial. I find salary to be really weird for many reasons. One of them is that I just can't imagine a sustainable world where salary is proactively offered, raised, etc. I think it necessarily must be negotiated. I say this as a person who spent most of my 20y career negotiating for my salary and hating the process. It feels attractive on the surface to see a concrete number, kind…

> I can't imagine a situation where they go "sorry, we really think we need you, but our job listing only goes up to this number, oops" Lots of big companies have very well-defined salary bands, and you can only negotiate up to the top of that band. There are other things you can negotiate for, hiring bonus, time off, WFH, equipment budget, etc, but you don't get higher salary unless you get a higher title too. > I j…

> Lots of big companies have very well-defined salary bands

It's true, but I'm not sure that it's good. That's going back to salary being weird. They are making themselves deliberately inflexible, locking themselves out of potentially good agreements (probably in response to public pressure). Perhaps big names can get away with it. Worth noting that the same "bands" probably don't apply to hiring consulting businesses. Ask yourself why, and how's that different from striking a deal with an individual.

> Companies already know how much they want to pay you

That's not true. They don't know how much they want to pay _you_. They know how much they want to pay an average abstract employee doing the job they vaguely envision in a satisfactory manner. Then when the actual _you_ come in, that abstract employee becomes a concrete advocate for themselves. They'll have to think about you specifically now, and it changes the whole calculus.

Re: No salary wastes everyone's time

#57

Post by av3a13 »

Manager here. I've been on both side of the table.

From HM perspective showing salary is bad idea. I can pay whatever I want inside budget assigned and build a smaller team of seniors or larger swarm of juniors depending on many factors. But first and foremost I want to have people with certain culture and mindset.

If I put low range I might loose opportunity to talk to people above the range.

But if I show high salary I am overwhelmed with conartists and tricksters trying to find their way to high compensation by finding company with poor vetting process. No exceptions for 10 years. I have yet to see a case where it brought a talent into pipeline.

Thus unless obliged by the law I am not showing any ranges and determine expectations through conversation with candidates compose a team from them and see if I can sweet the deal by beating their expectations.

From candidate perspective I see no issue, if you have few years of experience already you know potential employer salary tier just by looking on what they are doing.

I would try to avoid providing salary expectations, but if forced to just make current+30% stake.

And if it in a right league it's no issue for going through interview process.

I learn a lot on interviews by turning tables and trying to deep dive on what they doing and challenges facing and frequently get above the market offers.

Re: No salary wastes everyone's time

#58

Post by iExploder »

hakunin wrote: post #43
iExploder wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it necessarily must be negotiated it cant be negotiated fairly. negotiating works for people who are "in the know" and have been in the industry for years such as yourself. everyone else gets shit end of the stick, because the company is negotiation from position of power with much more knowledge. thats why some governments mandate minimum salary based on collective agreement or make it a law to provide sal…

I agree that senior experience is probably important, but also it’s knowing how to negotiate. What does it mean to be negotiated “fairly”? If you don’t like the rate, you come with a counter proposal, for which ideally you have leverage. The leverage is another job offer you found. If you don’t have leverage, you could negotiate a few other ways but they’re less effective. In the end, if you feel you can’t get a comp…

I believe this "dance" to be quite ineffective for both employers and employees, as the best strategy is standard 2 years somewhere then monkey branch for 20% bump in another company.

I guess this is a debate as old as time "invisible hand" vs "socialism". I understand both sides of the argument, but think it makes sense to have a bit of government oversight or workers initiatives here to make sure people are not getting shafted.

Re: No salary wastes everyone's time

#59

Post by iExploder »

SergeAx wrote: post #52
iExploder wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it necessarily must be negotiated it cant be negotiated fairly. negotiating works for people who are "in the know" and have been in the industry for years such as yourself. everyone else gets shit end of the stick, because the company is negotiation from position of power with much more knowledge. thats why some governments mandate minimum salary based on collective agreement or make it a law to provide sal…

And that is actually a problem for Austria. Ever heard about Austrian unicorn tech companies? Me neither. Upd: I actually checked, there are 6 (six) unicorns in Austria. But no one ever heard of them and you never figure out what are they doing.

I will bite and play the what-about-ism game.

And I dont mean this as an insult but factually you wont see crap smeared on sidewalks and armies of dope fiends walking around in the cities of Austria.

It seems like profit at the expense of everything else, morals included and sustainable growth are two different concepts.

So yes, Austria (country of 10 million) does not have many unicorn companies, but the quality of life for an average person is miles removed from that of an average person in the US, the country with most unicorns in the world?

Re: No salary wastes everyone's time

#60

Post by shinryuu »

av3a13 wrote: post #57

Manager here. I've been on both side of the table. From HM perspective showing salary is bad idea. I can pay whatever I want inside budget assigned and build a smaller team of seniors or larger swarm of juniors depending on many factors. But first and foremost I want to have people with certain culture and mindset. If I put low range I might loose opportunity to talk to people above the range. But if I show high sala…

> If I put low range I might loose opportunity to talk to people above the range.

> I can pay whatever I want inside budget assigned and build a smaller team of seniors or larger swarm of juniors depending on many factors.

You could also announce two positions (one senior, one junior), with two different ranges.

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