Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say • Hacker News Board

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#371

Post by andbberger » Fri, Jun 02, 2023, 9:16 AM UTC

mathieuh wrote: post #340

justahuman74 wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought I was a low risk driver, then when doing a lot of hours riding a motorcycle it became very apparent how incredibly terrible of a car driver I was. So much general threat and risk was invisible as a car driver contained in a big metal box.

I do a lot of cycling and it's amazing how much more aware you are when any minor bump is going to cause you injury. I've avoided accidents multiple seconds in advance because something about the way someone was driving made me nervous, it's like you get a sixth sense.

visibility is also dramatically better on a bike

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#372

Post by globular-toast » Fri, Jun 02, 2023, 9:27 AM UTC

So we're completely giving up on people being in control and responsible for these things? Fine. But this is a stupid reaction to that. Cars are far too heavy, far too powerful, far too comfortable and far too distracting. They are too much of a good thing. We desperately need to stop these things. But we're addicted. We're destroying the environment, hurting ourselves and others with these things. But we can't stop. Just like a heroin addict.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#373

Post by globular-toast » Fri, Jun 02, 2023, 9:29 AM UTC

nickpinkston wrote: post #102

I'm becoming an old man at 36... I just want a feedspinning NA engine with a 6 speed on a 3000 lb RWD chassis where everything isn't driver aids. I know... I know... this isn't practical or safe, but goddamn it, it's the most fun for me!

That's great. Keep your fun off the public highway, though. It's too dangerous. There are plenty of racetracks and a race car doesn't need to be road legal or practical so what you describe should be much more affordable.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#374

Post by josefx » Fri, Jun 02, 2023, 9:30 AM UTC

vkou wrote: post #121

JohnFen wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I also agree with this: > If the government wants to immediately improve car safety they should outlaw touchscreens instead.

It sounds like they should do both, then?

Removing distractions like poor user interfaces would probably overlap with the improvements from emergency braking. So if you want to be throughout you would have to check if they still make sense with the other changes in place.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#375

Post by globular-toast » Fri, Jun 02, 2023, 9:32 AM UTC

getmeinrn wrote: post #138

I've always wondered why brakes don't have a variable brightness based on how hard the driver is braking. If you've ever been behind someone who has braked hard, part of the danger is not realizing just how fast they're stopping.

Yeah, but really you were just driving close to the person in front. Remember, the person in front could emergency brake at any time. Even if you manage to detect that and emergency brake too, is the person behind you going to be able to?

Just don't drive close. Train yourself on what the proper distance is and stick to it.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#376

Post by HPsquared » Fri, Jun 02, 2023, 9:56 AM UTC

CJefferson wrote: post #332

Dylan16807 wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you missed their point. It's not that most situations are improved and some get worse, it's that those situations might be unevenly distributed among drivers. A seat belt is basically the same for everyone. It makes things safer when you look at all drivers, and it makes things safer for just about any subgroup of drivers. But a buggy AEB might not fit that pattern. Imagine a system that reduces crashes by ha…

Your claim seems to be the group who are not helped are "good drivers"? ... except that doesn't feel like a well-defined group to me, and also is a group that almost everyone would say that they are in.

Insurance companies have a pretty good idea of who the "good" and "bad" drivers are. It's a question of statistics.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#377

Post by HPsquared » Fri, Jun 02, 2023, 10:04 AM UTC

vkou wrote: post #126

hedora wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Road throughput is inversely proportional to following distance, so if everyone doubles their following distance to account for / avoid spurious automatic emergency braking, then we’d need to double the number of lanes to keep road capacity constant, which would lead to more lane changes, and therefore accidents. If, instead, we kept the roads the same, then congestion would increase, and with it, accidents. There is…

If we care about reducing following distance, we should be lowering speed limits. A car doing 60 needs a much longer safer braking distance than one doing 45. Also, if you are following at a distance where an AEB activation will cause you to rearend the vehicle in front of you, you are too close to safely follow any vehicle, regardless of whether it has an AEB.

Depending on where you live, if you leave a big gap someone else will just fill that space and you're back to the "short following distance" mode again. Rinse and repeat...

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#378

Post by HPsquared » Fri, Jun 02, 2023, 10:09 AM UTC

boringuser2 wrote: post #315

pdonis wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The other comments here make ‘automatic emergency braking’ sound like a really good idea That's because those other comments all assume that "automatic emergency braking" will only do exactly what it's supposed to do and will never make a mistake. But any sensible person knows that's not going to happen. These systems will make mistakes, and some of those mistakes will cause harm. So you can't just make a blanket c…

This is a solved engineering problem domain: use redundancy. There's a reason air travel is safe despite using many intricate safety technologies.

Redundancy doesn't work for design errors. You would need two diverse systems that have to agree before applying the brakes. This would also increase the "false negative" rate. It's a balance.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#379

Post by fennecfoxy » Fri, Jun 02, 2023, 10:10 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #6

This almost got me into a serious accident, twice. Definitely would not recommend and I switched cars because of it. The last thing I need is buggy software with the capability of instantly changing the trajectory of my vehicle (slippery surfaces, cornering). A brand car as well (MB) so really, really disappointed, what should have been a safety feature actually was the opposite. Dealer said everything was fine so th…

Automakers are also terrible at writing software.

But I do think these safety features are important if implemented correctly. I think the crux of the issue is: when someone _is_ paying attention, safety measures feel like they overreact and get in the way of subtle human reactions to things happening. If the driver is _not_ paying proper attention, then the safety systems are the only thing that react in time.

I feel like this requirement is important, but requires better software, including lessening the impact of safety systems engaging when the drive has been actively steering/accelerating/braking during a period of time, making it obvious that they are indeed paying attention. But there are plenty of drivers who pay almost no attention at all, many people go into auto-mode when driving and aren't ashamed of it.

I've almost been run over by drivers who have been directly looking at me before, then sudden braking when their eyes have stopped glazing over.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#380

Post by HPsquared » Fri, Jun 02, 2023, 10:18 AM UTC

midoridensha wrote: post #216

solfox wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My MB van also has similar serious issues with buggy auto-braking. Once, while driving head-on into a bright sun, it decided it was time to apply full brakes while driving highway speeds on a busy highway, in a vehicle with a GVWR of around 9,500 lbs. That wasn't fun and could have easily caused an accident involving multiple cars. My Tesla, which is probably the leader here, regularly makes mistakes - though never r…

>they really need to also mandate certain tests and features - plus OTA updates to recall any bugs OTA updates for braking systems will result in hackers wreaking havoc. The security implications of this are enormous; it's like putting your country's nuclear reactors on the internet. Updates should only be done in-person at the dealership, for free.

They would need to mandate certain security requirements then.

So the rule needs a rule to fix it, which needs another rule to fix that, and so on.