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Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

arstechnica.com

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Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not exclusively a "gearhead" opinion to not want a system in your car that can violently take control away from you unexpectedly Statistics are meaningless to the individual. Sure, emergency braking might be safer across the board, but that means little compared to an individual who already drives safely without it.

I have two vehicles with this system and they have never “violently taken control”. In most situations, the system gives an audible alert while pretension the brakes. If you react within the alert window you retain full control with the benefit of firm brakes (y’all ever remember getting soft brakes?). I don’t even want to know what situations I’d need to be in for my vehicle to actually emergency brake, but I don’t…

That's a fair contention: I've never personally driven a vehicle with such mechanism (perhaps owing to my economic inability to own such a device)

I appreciate your informed opinion!

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#292
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wrote up a long comment that got scrapped by my focus filter but I feel the need to voice strong agreement here. I have a recent Mazda which in almost all ways is my perfect car except for the newfangled safety features all new cars seem to have. Lane correction and emergency braking, even set to the lowest sensitivity levels, are bad to outright dangerous in city (and some country) driving. In NYC it's common to h…

>focus filter I’m more interested in this

Just https://heyfocus.com which I must have installed through Setapp, as I don't remember paying for it. It has a scripting capability so in theory I might be able to do something to prevent it from triggering when I'm active in a form.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#293
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lane keeping assistance, from the context.

Lane-keeping should only be active with cruise control active. You shouldn't be using it in city traffic, ever.

It is on by default in my 2020 Mazda3. After giving it (and all the other safety features) a chance for several months it's muscle memory to flip off all safety features during city driving. Thankfully there's a single button that does that, just left of the steering wheel.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#294
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A driver that drives unreasonably more slowly than the traffic that surrounds them is a bad driver. They cause traffic and create more chances for crashes -- after all, crash severity is directly proportional to relative speed between moving bodies.

But odds of rollover and braking distance are proportional to your absolute speed. So is crash severity when you're impacting a tree, animal or pedestrian.

The problem is that there are more than two drivers involved:

There is you, and the slow driver blocking traffic in the passing lane next to you.

Then there are the 8 cars behind you, and at least one of those drivers is making everyone unsafe out of frustration.

You can't do anything to change that driver's behavior. The situation persists until the system is altered.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#295
post #210

Perhaps I'm getting jaded (or wiser) in my old age, but anytime I see "mandate", I just picture congress people shoveling truck loads of money into a company's stock. So if this is mandated, what stock should I buy? (I'm serious).

Mandated safety features wouldn't increase stock price of any of the auto manufacturers. You might be able to expose yourself to the increase in price if you can isolate the manufacturer(s) of the technology involved itself. You're still highly unlikely to capture any alpha if the various car companies diversify which chips/camera's they are using.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#296
post #141
post #25

I confess that I find a dark humor in how many self professed "great drivers" find these features a nuisance. All the while so many people are completely unaware that they have these, as they have never activated. Hard for me to square those pegs in a favorable way. Which, yes, being a great driver means you may be pushing close to limits while still be completely under control a lot. I just don't have a strong prior…

A driver that drives unreasonably more slowly than the traffic that surrounds them is a bad driver. They cause traffic and create more chances for crashes -- after all, crash severity is directly proportional to relative speed between moving bodies.

The propaganda that hyperfocuses on speed (ignoring all other factors in the system) has been very effective.

People seem oblivious to the reality that vain platitudes will never convince aggressive drivers to drive more safely in traffic.

Police are guaranteed to obsess over speed. It's just like the war on drugs: officers can measure and record criminal behavior! Easy money. Not once in my life have I even heard of the other law that is posted on signs - slower traffic keep right - being enforced.

Traffic flow is as important as any other variable in this system. Crash intensity is zero when there is no collision.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#297
post #115
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wrote up a long comment that got scrapped by my focus filter but I feel the need to voice strong agreement here. I have a recent Mazda which in almost all ways is my perfect car except for the newfangled safety features all new cars seem to have. Lane correction and emergency braking, even set to the lowest sensitivity levels, are bad to outright dangerous in city (and some country) driving. In NYC it's common to h…

My new car has lane keep assist and AEB and I haven't had these issues. From what I hear it's very much to do with a maker's implementation (mine is Hyundai, who for various reasons seems to have a bad reputation in North America but a good one in Australia). For the lane keep assist I feel a nudge but it's extremely easy to overcome just through a normal grip on the wheel - if I don't budge it won't move. It's been…

> From what I hear it's very much to do with a maker's implementation

Right, if I had to condense my issues into something more constructive it is just that: if regulators want to pursue a mandate for these systems, they should also work on establishing testing criteria and specifications that cover the many different conditions drivers face and reduces variation between manufacturers as possible. Not an easy task.

To give a quick example: another commenter in this thread states that lane assist only kicks in at 35mph. That is true in some models but not all which could lead to some nice surprises. Further, the speed limit in NYC is 25mph so it's not unusual if the road surface is decent to be cruising closer to 30. Unless there's a threshold for activation, you might be walking a fine line between "safety on"/"safety off" and any resulting corrections it might make.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#298
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theory is great. What has data shown?

Among other things, data showed mandatory helmet laws may have had a perverse impact on motorcycle fatalities: http://john-adams.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2006/motorcycle%2...

Haven't read it completely or paid attention to the data yet, but the conclusion got me hooked:

   > Conclusion

   > The foregoing review of the statistical case for helmet legislation suggests that the faith of the BMJ in the reliability of the statistical evidence on the effect of helmet legislation is misplaced. But debates about sophisticated statistics should not be allowed to drown out the voice of common sense. The risk compensation hypothesis is essentially common sense. There is a wealth of evidence from everyday experience that suggests that people's behaviour is influenced by their perception of risk. People tend to be more cautious when up high ladders than when up low ladders. They tend to take more care when standing on the edge of a high precipice than when standing on a low kerb. They tend to slow down when they encounter bends in the road or patches of fog and to speed up when the road becomes straight or the visibility good-and so on. The possible illustrations of the phenomenon are countless.

   > There is an impressive amount of propaganda designed to encourage people to believe that they are very much less vulnerable when using seat belts and motorcycle helmets, and common sense suggests that driving behaviour will be influenced by safety devices that diminish the user's sense of vulnerability. What unaided common sense cannot predict is whether the behavioural changes induced by a safety device will partly, completely, or more than completely nullify the intended effect of the device.

   > The statistics which the NHTSA considers the most compelling evidence in support of helmet legislation are displayed in figure 1. The state which Watson et al (1980) consider has had the greatest increase in deaths as result of helmet law repeal is Utah. 

   > When the distorting effects of the analytical methods employed by the NHTSA and Watson et al are removed, their data (with the caveats discussed above) suggest that the effect, if any, of helmet legislation on motorcycling fatalities is perverse.
I'll have to read the paper with more attention later to see if I agree with this, but it's a fascinating hypothesis regardless.

Also, this is tangential, but I'm always impressed how different conclusions can be based on the same sets of data. Statistics is a truly fascinating field of mathematics because it's still an objective topic (regarding numbers, in isolation) but becomes very human and subjective when it comes to the different conclusions, transformations, and visualizations for the same data sets.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#299
I don't ride horses because I don't want my bicycle to have the ability to make bad (or any) decisions mid-ride. Fuck everything about this proposal for identical reasons. I nearly got myself and several other folks killed on the highway in a rental Forrester when lane assist decided it couldn't tell the difference between painted lane markers and pavement seams in the middle of Denver highway construction. If folks don't want to actually operate the vehicle they travel in that's fine, move to an urban area and use mass transit. For myself, I'll just keep driving continuously older vehicles until I finally get around to doing a full EV conversion on a vintage car, thereby permanently sidestepping all manners of similar bullshit.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this seems like the sort of thing that would be better measured with actual numbers, not just anecdotes from people on the internet. the NHTSA is a pretty cautious organization, and they like numbers. if they've studied it and found that automatic braking will prevent 24000 crashes and 360 deaths per year, i'd be inclined to believe them. having the car brake for me when i'm not expecting it sounds kind of scary to m…

360 deaths is noise.

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