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No salary wastes everyone's time

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Re: No salary wastes everyone's time

#21

Post by 000ooo000 »

hirundo wrote: post #16
throw9away6 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you the person on the dating site that refuses to post a photo as well?

Exactly. Some of us are ugly but still have a hope when face to face. That ambiguity gives us a chance at being a contender, to make the case that there's more to us. Is that unreasonable for an ugly person? I think its not, and its also not unreasonable for someone else to think "no picture, they're probably ugly and I'm all about the looks, so I'll pass."

I think it might be a mistake to conflate business ethics with personal ethics. I have sympathy for individuals who through no fault of their own struggle in the dating scene; I have no sympathy for corporate entities in any regard.

Re: No salary wastes everyone's time

#22

Post by jcpsimmons »

Eloquently put. The last time I was on the market I didn’t apply to a single company that didn’t list salary - every time I’ve done that their pitch was underwhelming.

To those saying “there’s more than salary” - that’s a privileged take. I hate to use that word but it’s appropriate here. Salary ONLY MEANS being able to put a roof over your family’s head and feed them.

Re: No salary wastes everyone's time

#23

Post by dogma1138 »

paulddraper wrote: post #8

I want to be upfront. Here's the difficulty. (I say this as an employer.) Let's say I'm looking for engineer #2 or #3 for my YC startup and I'll pay 95k for junior or 185k for senior. Is posting 95-185k really that useful? What happens when I offer someone 130k but they were expecting 185k? And you can't just use years of experience alone to rank junior vs senior. tl;dr If engineers were more fungible, I could post a…

Single digit employees can’t be really considered “junior” regardless of their experience since you are looking for people that would literally build your company from scratch.

Whilst experience is important it doesn’t not directly correlates with competence as you’ve also mentioned.

Re: No salary wastes everyone's time

#25

Post by throw9away6 »

hirundo wrote: post #16
throw9away6 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you the person on the dating site that refuses to post a photo as well?

Exactly. Some of us are ugly but still have a hope when face to face. That ambiguity gives us a chance at being a contender, to make the case that there's more to us. Is that unreasonable for an ugly person? I think its not, and its also not unreasonable for someone else to think "no picture, they're probably ugly and I'm all about the looks, so I'll pass."

The sometimes you can win on the face to face just like sometimes you can hire below market rates, but you are just wasting time on a site where other people do post photos and a high initial investment is required

Re: No salary wastes everyone's time

#26

Post by throw9away6 »

000ooo000 wrote: post #21
hirundo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Some of us are ugly but still have a hope when face to face. That ambiguity gives us a chance at being a contender, to make the case that there's more to us. Is that unreasonable for an ugly person? I think its not, and its also not unreasonable for someone else to think "no picture, they're probably ugly and I'm all about the looks, so I'll pass."

I think it might be a mistake to conflate business ethics with personal ethics. I have sympathy for individuals who through no fault of their own struggle in the dating scene; I have no sympathy for corporate entities in any regard.

Very few people struggle with dating through no fault of their own. Most people have actionable things that they can do to get a date just like most can find a job. But not everyone can get to the level of dating models or working at FANG companies. That requires done combination hard work and natural gift.

If you don’t grind leetcode you won’t get that fang job, if you don’t grind social skills and status you won’t get that hot date.

Re: No salary wastes everyone's time

#27

Post by hakunin »

This is probably going to be controversial.

I find salary to be really weird for many reasons. One of them is that I just can't imagine a sustainable world where salary is proactively offered, raised, etc. I think it necessarily must be negotiated. I say this as a person who spent most of my 20y career negotiating for my salary and hating the process.

It feels attractive on the surface to see a concrete number, kind of like coming to a car website and seeing cars sold at a fixed price, no bargaining. Or kind of like searching for loan refinancing and seeing a bank website show you the standard menu of rates they offer. You just pick from the menu.

However, the issue is that you're probably overpaying for the car, and getting a bad refinance rate every time. And your blanket "salary tier" is probably some safe hedge for the worth you may or may not be bringing. An estimation of vague plans they might have on where you may help.

Shouldn't this be reversed? Shouldn't it be you to tell them what you can do, the plans, explain how much you're worth? How can they know your salary if you haven't told them this stuff yet? Aren't you supposed to be an expert at something? That's just one of a few weirdnesses about salary.

Maybe it depends on a job, and some jobs are really _that_ predictable, but feels like in software dev industry it doesn't add up, except maybe for junior positions.

I used to be in the opposite camp, but nowadays every time I see a concrete salary range listed, it makes me feel silly. We all know that humans running the place can probably decide to pay whatever they want based on how they feel. I can't imagine a situation where they go "sorry, we really think we need you, but our job listing only goes up to this number, oops".

Re: No salary wastes everyone's time

#28

Post by hitsurume »

hakunin wrote: post #27

This is probably going to be controversial. I find salary to be really weird for many reasons. One of them is that I just can't imagine a sustainable world where salary is proactively offered, raised, etc. I think it necessarily must be negotiated. I say this as a person who spent most of my 20y career negotiating for my salary and hating the process. It feels attractive on the surface to see a concrete number, kind…

Your mindset doesn't count for the wasted time on being lowballed by companies. Say you have your 20 years of experience, you go through several rounds of interviews and they offer you a junior level salary with their big fat smile. Now what? They wasted your time from the very beginning hoping to charm you into wanting to work there. The people interviewing you are all getting paid, yet you are the one who have time loss and no gain. Now imagine if multiple companies did that to you throughout your job search, wouldn't you rather the company start with honesty from the very beginning?

Re: No salary wastes everyone's time

#29

Post by lapcat »

hakunin wrote: post #27

This is probably going to be controversial. I find salary to be really weird for many reasons. One of them is that I just can't imagine a sustainable world where salary is proactively offered, raised, etc. I think it necessarily must be negotiated. I say this as a person who spent most of my 20y career negotiating for my salary and hating the process. It feels attractive on the surface to see a concrete number, kind…

> However, the issue is that you're probably overpaying for the car

On the contrary. People have options for cars. You don't have to buy a specific brand or a specific model. If every car's price is listed publicly, then consumers can easily shop around for the best price, and it would be difficult for a dealer to get away with overcharging everyone with a publicly listed price. People just won't buy from a dealer with inflated prices.

When there's price negotiation, dealers mostly win at that game, because they usually have far more information than the consumer.

Re: No salary wastes everyone's time

#30

Post by hakunin »

hitsurume wrote: post #28
hakunin wrote: post #27

This is probably going to be controversial. I find salary to be really weird for many reasons. One of them is that I just can't imagine a sustainable world where salary is proactively offered, raised, etc. I think it necessarily must be negotiated. I say this as a person who spent most of my 20y career negotiating for my salary and hating the process. It feels attractive on the surface to see a concrete number, kind…

Your mindset doesn't count for the wasted time on being lowballed by companies. Say you have your 20 years of experience, you go through several rounds of interviews and they offer you a junior level salary with their big fat smile. Now what? They wasted your time from the very beginning hoping to charm you into wanting to work there. The people interviewing you are all getting paid, yet you are the one who have time…

I see your point, but not sure if a number up front would be honesty, seems more of a gamble. They need to find a number that's not too low, not too high, for an abstract average human. I've managed to detect a lowball danger fairly early on in my past negotiations, but can't claim that it's easy. That said, maybe knowing their "hedge rate" is a useful tell, even if you don't entirely trust it.
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