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Show HN: I made CSS Pro, a re-imagined Devtools for web design

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Re: Show HN: I made CSS Pro, a re-imagined Devtools for web design

#161

Post by jchw »

not_a_shill wrote: post #159
jchw wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nailed it. I happily pay a lot of money for nice things, but only if I get to own them. I am not cheap, I'm picky. I'm not picky by choice, I'm picky by experience. I already know I can't trust subscriptions. If you have to make your tool a one-time cost, you might come to realize it's not really worth the amount of money you could've made by selling it for $5/mo, and that's a great illustration of just one reason wh…

You are cheap. You're still basing your decision on the cost of using the product instead of the value it provides you. This isn't targeting you specifically though, most comments in this thread are stereotypical developers too.

No, I am not basing my decision on the cost of using the product. I'm basing my decision on factors that have nothing to do with money.

I think a perfect example of this for me is IDA Pro, for which I own a license. When Hex-Rays switched over to a subscription model, I did not renew. I still use the old version today, and it works perfectly fine for my needs.

The difference between buying it on subscription and not is whether or not I own it. I really own this copy; it's mine whether or not I'm connected to the Internet, and it will work in perpetuity until the sun burns out. That's how exchanging money for software is supposed to work.

Re: Show HN: I made CSS Pro, a re-imagined Devtools for web design

#162

Post by jchw »

soneca wrote: post #154
jchw wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nailed it. I happily pay a lot of money for nice things, but only if I get to own them. I am not cheap, I'm picky. I'm not picky by choice, I'm picky by experience. I already know I can't trust subscriptions. If you have to make your tool a one-time cost, you might come to realize it's not really worth the amount of money you could've made by selling it for $5/mo, and that's a great illustration of just one reason wh…

They have a one-time pay option. $900. So, if you love to pay for nice things as long as you can own them, they have an option for you.

Exactly! And I do, in fact, I will pay much more than that for a one-time software payment, and I have. However:

> If you have to make your tool a one-time cost, you might come to realize it's not really worth the amount of money you could've made by selling it for $5/mo, and that's a great illustration of just one reason why developers don't like subscriptions.

At $900, it's not so easy of a sell. edit: Especially because, do I own it?

> License for 3 activations

OK. What happens when the activation server goes down? For software I really own, there is no concern here.

Re: Show HN: I made CSS Pro, a re-imagined Devtools for web design

#163

Post by LapsangGuzzler »

not_a_shill wrote: post #159
jchw wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nailed it. I happily pay a lot of money for nice things, but only if I get to own them. I am not cheap, I'm picky. I'm not picky by choice, I'm picky by experience. I already know I can't trust subscriptions. If you have to make your tool a one-time cost, you might come to realize it's not really worth the amount of money you could've made by selling it for $5/mo, and that's a great illustration of just one reason wh…

You are cheap. You're still basing your decision on the cost of using the product instead of the value it provides you. This isn't targeting you specifically though, most comments in this thread are stereotypical developers too.

Every developer understands how subscriptions work. A product may provide value today, but there’s no guarantee that the payoff will be worth the cost in the long run as the company increases its prices.

With a subscription, you’re agreeing to let a company tax you to do your job in the hope that it pays off instead paying upfront one time for a product.

Re: Show HN: I made CSS Pro, a re-imagined Devtools for web design

#164

Post by not_a_shill »

jchw wrote: post #161
not_a_shill wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are cheap. You're still basing your decision on the cost of using the product instead of the value it provides you. This isn't targeting you specifically though, most comments in this thread are stereotypical developers too.

No, I am not basing my decision on the cost of using the product. I'm basing my decision on factors that have nothing to do with money. I think a perfect example of this for me is IDA Pro, for which I own a license. When Hex-Rays switched over to a subscription model, I did not renew. I still use the old version today, and it works perfectly fine for my needs. The difference between buying it on subscription and not…

>you might come to realize it's not really worth the amount of money you could've made by selling it for $5/mo,

I wouldn't have brought this up if you weren't trying to give the impression that money is a factor.

I interpreted it as "I still wouldn't pay $120 because even though it returns more value than that, it isn't worth that."

Edit: (that being said, the one time purchase cost of this for a "lifetime" license is $900, which seems more like a way to push subscriptions than a serious attempt at selling a one time purchase)

Re: Show HN: I made CSS Pro, a re-imagined Devtools for web design

#165

Post by not_a_shill »

LapsangGuzzler wrote: post #163
not_a_shill wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are cheap. You're still basing your decision on the cost of using the product instead of the value it provides you. This isn't targeting you specifically though, most comments in this thread are stereotypical developers too.

Every developer understands how subscriptions work. A product may provide value today, but there’s no guarantee that the payoff will be worth the cost in the long run as the company increases its prices. With a subscription, you’re agreeing to let a company tax you to do your job in the hope that it pays off instead paying upfront one time for a product.

>but there’s no guarantee that the payoff will be worth the cost in the long run as the company increases its prices.

You can cancel a subscription

Re: Show HN: I made CSS Pro, a re-imagined Devtools for web design

#167

Post by interactivecode »

rcconf wrote: post #69

Honestly the comments are a good example on how difficult it is to sell to developers and why startup ideas that target developers are dangerous to bootstrap. Developers have high incomes, but are quite frankly, extremely cheap. And I actually mean cheap and not frugal. They will spend 40 hours/week for months to save $5/mo. There's basically no logic apart from that developers have a poor concept of time and money a…

the way you calculate savings is not really true in reality. even if I can now do my work 4 hours a week faster. I'm not immediately getting a pay bump, my boss just gives me 4hours of extra work.

It won't give me 4 hours a week back, because my boss still reserves my time for those 4 hours.

My household won't have an extra 30 euro a month to spend on those dinners. actually it will directly have 30 euro less to spend on dinners. so yeah all those considerations make me cautious paying for more subscriptions.

Re: Show HN: I made CSS Pro, a re-imagined Devtools for web design

#168

Post by interactivecode »

patrec wrote: post #146
ekianjo wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Developers, my only word of advice, is seriously.. stop being so cheap and spend some money to make your lives easier. 30 USD here, 30 USD there, soon enough your bills go in the hundreds or thousands of dollars.

So you mean if after 30 or so such subscriptions you only increase your productivity by 0.1% you still come out ahead?

9 other subscriptions and I only have to work 0 hours a week

Re: Show HN: I made CSS Pro, a re-imagined Devtools for web design

#169

Post by jchw »

not_a_shill wrote: post #164
jchw wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I am not basing my decision on the cost of using the product. I'm basing my decision on factors that have nothing to do with money. I think a perfect example of this for me is IDA Pro, for which I own a license. When Hex-Rays switched over to a subscription model, I did not renew. I still use the old version today, and it works perfectly fine for my needs. The difference between buying it on subscription and not…

>you might come to realize it's not really worth the amount of money you could've made by selling it for $5/mo, I wouldn't have brought this up if you weren't trying to give the impression that money is a factor. I interpreted it as "I still wouldn't pay $120 because even though it returns more value than that, it isn't worth that." Edit: (that being said, the one time purchase cost of this for a "lifetime" license i…

Yes, but the qualifier is important.

>just one reason why developers don't like subscriptions.

The truth is that I don't even consider paying for new subscriptions anymore unless there's a good reason for it to be a subscription. I don't want to have to "trust" someone. Will they exist in a year? Will the software get worse and leave me with no choice but to use the "new" version? The test here is that I genuinely don't think I would use software that asked for a $0.05/month subscription either. That's just not how I want to use software.

If we want to talk about money, though, then there are still good reasons to not buy a $5/mo subscription. It sounds like it's a good enough deal, and in fact, I might even agree with you. But there is absolutely nothing that guarantees that this will stay the price forever in perpetuity. In fact, even a literal guarantee that enforces this would be worth toilet paper because if it ever came to a head, if the company went bankrupt, it would take down the activation servers and potentially leave you without your software.

So playing it from the top, let's say you get a new-fangled productivity software. Everything's great and you're only paying $5/mo.

- Then they release a "new" version. The new version breaks all of your workflows and you have to relearn everything. It's now awkward for the way you were using it.

- Then they add new features that are only available on a new $20/mo subscription. Turns out $5/mo wasn't really sustainable after all, so they need to adjust the price. Slowly over time, pressure mounts on the grandfathered old accounts to do something that will push them up to a higher tier.

- Then it all goes badly: Some venture capital and/or acquisitions later, and the software goes broke. Now what? Well, if you own it, nothing. If you don't, tough luck: All of your workflows are broken again, and you have to go back to doing things the old way.

For tools that are core to the stuff I work on, I do not play games like this. I do not care how sure you are that this won't be you. I don't want re-assurances, I want control over it.

Re: Show HN: I made CSS Pro, a re-imagined Devtools for web design

#170

Post by demarq »

rcconf wrote: post #69

Honestly the comments are a good example on how difficult it is to sell to developers and why startup ideas that target developers are dangerous to bootstrap. Developers have high incomes, but are quite frankly, extremely cheap. And I actually mean cheap and not frugal. They will spend 40 hours/week for months to save $5/mo. There's basically no logic apart from that developers have a poor concept of time and money a…

1000% agree. Don’t sell to devs, always sell to their employers. I now see how keeping your price hidden could be beneficial. The person you’re selling to isn’t the person who should be interested in the price!
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