San Francisco: An Elitist Bubble Ignoring a Crime Epidemic? • Hacker News Board

Re: San Francisco: An Elitist Bubble Ignoring a Crime Epidemic?

#111

Post by lanstin » Wed, May 31, 2023, 6:02 PM UTC

vinaypai wrote: post #62

sylens wrote: post #29

You're seeing this everywhere. Chicago, Philadelphia, and so on - although the problem may be worse in San Francisco. Cities are struggling in the post-pandemic era as the rising cost of living due to inflation in food and other essentials has driven more criminal activity, mostly around theft. This is happening at the same time where many cities are also trying more progressive, reform-based approaches to policing a…

I don't think the cost of living has anything to do with it. There was a huge boom in delivery services during the pandemic, and rapid transition from bicycles to far more valuable electric scooters. There's just far more opportunity for theft.

It's a lot easier to steal a scooter than a car, and yet harder to put the scooter into your apartment than a bike.

I live in San Jose, not San Francisco, but I really don't notice its any less pleasant to visit the city now compared to 2008 when I moved to California. And while things do get stolen in San Jose, it feels a lot less crimey than 1990s East Coast cities that I lived in back then (I left a bike on the VTA once, and did not get it back; I've had bikes I left in my front driveway unlocked for overnight and had them stolen). Beater bikes that are locked, for example, are mostly safe. And just don't buy a multi-thousand dollar bike in a culture with rampant inequality, it is impolite. It's like making out with your partner in front of someone that's just lost the love of their life.

Re: San Francisco: An Elitist Bubble Ignoring a Crime Epidemic?

#112

Post by DoreenMichele » Wed, May 31, 2023, 6:03 PM UTC

sylens wrote: post #69

DoreenMichele wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of city residents need to come to terms with the fact that some of these progressive criminal justice reforms may need to be adjusted a bit, given that we now have years of evidence of their effects. And/or: We need to make affordable housing available, make a car-optional lifestyle more viable, etc. "The beatings shall continue until morale improves" isn't an effective approach to anything, especially since if…

Notice I am not advocating for a complete reversal of these reform-based approaches - I said they need to be adjusted a bit. It is unlikely anything is done 100% correctly on the first attempt, and we are seeing firsthand that there needs to be some further disincentive for so brazenly committing crimes of theft in these areas

Notice how I opened with "And/or".

Re: San Francisco: An Elitist Bubble Ignoring a Crime Epidemic?

#113

Post by [deleted] » Wed, May 31, 2023, 6:03 PM UTC

maerF0x0 wrote: post #2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_California Despite California's current reputation, check out 1952-1988 . IMO that was a golden era of California, and the fertile grounds under which many of the boomers generation got their start

[deleted]

Re: San Francisco: An Elitist Bubble Ignoring a Crime Epidemic?

#114

Post by wonderwonder » Wed, May 31, 2023, 6:03 PM UTC

Unpopular opinion. Prisons Should really have at least twice as many occupants. If people are unable to live in a polite society and follow the rules they should be removed until they are willing to.

How many times do we read about someone that killed/ raped/ assaulted someone and it's revealed they have dozens of prior arrests?

Putting them back on the street constantly can only lead to their death or crimes against innocents.

What has happened to crime and specifically the homicide rate since police were demonized? 28% increase in 2020 over 2019. A record increase. This is what happens when you remove police.

No one should have to live in fear when getting on the train or walking down the street. Or have to constantly repair their property due to a smash and grab. Remove these people and house them somewhere they can no longer cause harm.

Re: San Francisco: An Elitist Bubble Ignoring a Crime Epidemic?

#115

Post by borski » Wed, May 31, 2023, 6:03 PM UTC

j0hnyl wrote: post #89

probablyexists wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is entirely how I remember SF being 10 years ago as well. I don’t doubt that the pandemic has been hard on all cities, but I agree that the author is making a big assumption based on a tiny sample.

SF is so much worse than it was 10 years ago. 10 years ago you could still find people that haven't had their car windows smashed. These days I doubt you'll find someone that hasn't had their car windows smashed less than several times.

> 10 years ago you could still find people that haven't had their car windows smashed.

10 years ago, everyone I knew had had their car windows smashed. I’m not sure this is true.

Re: San Francisco: An Elitist Bubble Ignoring a Crime Epidemic?

#116

Post by AYBABTME » Wed, May 31, 2023, 6:03 PM UTC

I'm in the East Bay where the voters elected a repeat of Chesa Boudin, incarnated in Pamela Price. I must say that while I respect the counter-intuitive idea that a fresh "progressive" means of justice might solve the problem at the root, I really question the idea of leniency and non-enforcement of justice. I'm open to imaginative and counter-intuitive approaches, but I'm just not seeing this work out well.

It appears that the strategy is to avoid enforcing or prosecuting minor crimes and letting people go with little consequences. But if I think about how this would work out, if I raised my kids like this, I quickly conclude that my kids would become awful people.

Say that your kid does minor stuff like lying, swearing, refusing to apologize, breaking things on purpose. And you decide "I won't discipline my kid, because this isn't serious enough". It's pretty obvious that the kid is going to turn bad, since there's a missing feedback mechanism. They test the boundaries, and the boundaries are way far into unacceptable territory. Many would say you do a great disservice to your kid in not teaching them what is acceptable and what isn't, and letting them go feral without any notion that the minor stuff is also not acceptable.

Now you might say that the justice system isn't a parent and residents aren't kids. But I think actually the analogy is appropriate. Our society needs to educate and shape public behavior to maintain harmony and fairness for all. To some extent, where parents have a duty to educate their kids, the government has a mandate to educate and police civil society. And yet the county is apparently shying away from fulfilling their role of educator and enforcer. Where's the feedback mechanism? It seems to me that the component of civility education is lacking in the general public, but we can't make up for this by relaxing the rules of society.

Applying this entire "vibe" to myself: why should I respect speed limits, stop signs, or any "minor" thing when I know it goes unenforced. I was told my entire life that "driving is a privilege, not a right" and yet people drive with expired plates, or no plate at all, and nothing gets done about it on the basis that the needy would be worse off without their cars.

Re: San Francisco: An Elitist Bubble Ignoring a Crime Epidemic?

#117

Post by legitster » Wed, May 31, 2023, 6:04 PM UTC

One of Ben Horowitz's books spends some time arguing that they set up Andreeson Horowitz in San Francisco specifically because they think it's the coolest city in the world - and they will naturally get access to the best talent because of it.

Regardless of how you feel about SF now or then, it's hard to argue that it's actually "cool" enough today that it's drawing any talent on its own. People moved to SF to pursue the rat race of chasing after good software jobs - not the other way around.

So yeah, I definitely believe that there is an elitist bubble where Horowitz and Benioff and other prominent SFians kind of delude themselves to believe that SF is actually a better place to start a software business rather than, say, Omaha or St Louis or even Sacramento.

Re: San Francisco: An Elitist Bubble Ignoring a Crime Epidemic?

#118

Post by lanstin » Wed, May 31, 2023, 6:04 PM UTC

Solvency wrote: post #104

buggythebug wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't put SF in the great cities list. Maybe it had something back in the 80's or 90's - it's own charm or soul. But for the past 15 year's it's slowly turned into a soulless, charmless, no character city where everyone is in tech and thinks the same. I may be in the miniority on this site - but frankly I think it's sucked for a while now. I've had much better times in other big cities worldwide.

Aside from how SF stacks up in the "great cities" list, many people like myself have a lifelong attraction to the bay area for entirely geographical reasons. It's absolutely gorgeous. The land, the water, the mountains, everything about that region is physically incredible. And those aspects are rather immutable and special.

You can close your eyes and just drive to some random place, a 7-11 or whatever, and it is so beautiful that it would be a state park in Maryland. And the weather is so nice you can leave your tiny overpriced house and go visit the beauty every day.

Re: San Francisco: An Elitist Bubble Ignoring a Crime Epidemic?

#119

Post by DoreenMichele » Wed, May 31, 2023, 6:05 PM UTC

StephenSmith wrote: post #85

DoreenMichele wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of city residents need to come to terms with the fact that some of these progressive criminal justice reforms may need to be adjusted a bit, given that we now have years of evidence of their effects. And/or: We need to make affordable housing available, make a car-optional lifestyle more viable, etc. "The beatings shall continue until morale improves" isn't an effective approach to anything, especially since if…

The long term strategies you suggest almost certainly are the long-term answer. But that's just it, those solutions may take years. San Francisco may not last that long.

Yeah, let's put off trying to implement actual ("long-term") solutions because we are in a crisis. Then make new excuses next year for how we still can't afford to think long-term because our problems are so bad right now.

Re: San Francisco: An Elitist Bubble Ignoring a Crime Epidemic?

#120

Post by jakelazaroff » Wed, May 31, 2023, 6:05 PM UTC

munificent wrote: post #68

sylens wrote: post #29

You're seeing this everywhere. Chicago, Philadelphia, and so on - although the problem may be worse in San Francisco. Cities are struggling in the post-pandemic era as the rising cost of living due to inflation in food and other essentials has driven more criminal activity, mostly around theft. This is happening at the same time where many cities are also trying more progressive, reform-based approaches to policing a…

> A lot of city residents need to come to terms with the fact that some of these progressive criminal justice reforms may need to be adjusted a bit, given that we now have years of evidence of their effects. Or we need progressive economic reforms to go with them. You can avoid property crime two ways: 1. Massive police power that brutally punishes anyone who does it so that the incentives are always against it. 2. C…

The goal of "crime wave" rhetoric is #1. You can tell because the people pushing it ignore far costlier crimes such as wage theft that tend to be committed by people whom they don't want to punish.

Heck, for the past decade or so, police themselves have stolen at least as much via civil asset forfeiture than has been taken in burglaries [1]. Yet the "law and order" solution is to hand them more power.

[1] https://boingboing.net/2020/12/21/us-police-have-stolen-68-b...