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Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

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Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#31
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The nazi desire to exterminate all Jews was known. Jews were killed in the streets of towns. Some even involved mass killings. Towns bragged about being Jew free. Ignorance does not fly. Yes there was some uncertainty of what happened at the camps. But it was well known even at the time that nazi’s camps meant death.

Actually, there was only ever a mention of a final solution. No real understanding of what that meant. This resulted in allied forces, who had spies throughout the Third Reich, being completely shocked by the camps when they found them. The fact, Allied Forces who were better informed than the average German Ciziten had no idea what was happening is a major sign that they didn't know. Furthermore, if you read any of…

Do you think the people in the general population who knew the extent of the atrocities were likely to admit the same post war? Its more likely they knew and just denied having known to save face.

Kids being indoctrinated in youth camps is a different matter entirely.

Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#32
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, there was only ever a mention of a final solution. No real understanding of what that meant. This resulted in allied forces, who had spies throughout the Third Reich, being completely shocked by the camps when they found them. The fact, Allied Forces who were better informed than the average German Ciziten had no idea what was happening is a major sign that they didn't know. Furthermore, if you read any of…

> Furthermore, the majority of victims of the holocaust weren't Jewish The Holocaust is defined in the first sentence as "the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jewish men, women and children by the Nazi regime and its collaborators." I don't think you really meant to claim that "majority of victims of the holocaust weren't Jewish".

Look at the victim counts in the document titled "DOCUMENTING NUMBERS OF VICTIMS OF THE HOLOCAUST AND NAZI PERSECUTION". If you wish to argue with with them over it, feel free.

Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#33

The Polish law in question that sparked the controversy is very 1930s Germany in nature, as can be seen if we replace "Russian" with "Jewish" in the description (and "Poland" with "Germany"): > "(AP) The law would establish a state commission for investigating Russian influence in Poland and on national security with the powers of prosecutor and judge." Given that the adoption of totalitarian powers is more-or-less r…

Judaism is a largely unorganized religion with no military. Russia is a large hostile state with a history of attacking Poland and possessor of, at one point, a strong military.

Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#34
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Furthermore, the majority of victims of the holocaust weren't Jewish The Holocaust is defined in the first sentence as "the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jewish men, women and children by the Nazi regime and its collaborators." I don't think you really meant to claim that "majority of victims of the holocaust weren't Jewish".

Look at the victim counts in the document titled "DOCUMENTING NUMBERS OF VICTIMS OF THE HOLOCAUST AND NAZI PERSECUTION". If you wish to argue with with them over it, feel free.

Holocaust is one thing, Nazi persecution is another thing.

Persecutions are a terrible thing — and Nazi persecution especially so — but it (and others) just fall short on the scale of atrocities, when being compared to the Holocaust.

Either you don't understand what exactly the Holocaust is, or you're spreading a modern version of Holocaust denial, where by "modern version" I mean not "this didn't happen" but "this did happen but so what".

Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#35

The Polish law in question that sparked the controversy is very 1930s Germany in nature, as can be seen if we replace "Russian" with "Jewish" in the description (and "Poland" with "Germany"): > "(AP) The law would establish a state commission for investigating Russian influence in Poland and on national security with the powers of prosecutor and judge." Given that the adoption of totalitarian powers is more-or-less r…

Judaism is a largely unorganized religion with no military. Russia is a large hostile state with a history of attacking Poland and possessor of, at one point, a strong military.

[flagged]

Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#36
post #7

I'm more horrified by the discovery there are endless selfies taken there: https://metro.co.uk/2017/01/19/powerful-images-that-show-why...

To be clear, this is not the Auschwitz museum. Point still stands.

I’ve been. It’s a truly harrowing place. People took selfies

Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, there was only ever a mention of a final solution. No real understanding of what that meant. This resulted in allied forces, who had spies throughout the Third Reich, being completely shocked by the camps when they found them. The fact, Allied Forces who were better informed than the average German Ciziten had no idea what was happening is a major sign that they didn't know. Furthermore, if you read any of…

> Furthermore, if you read any of the books written by Germans who lived through that time they'll often say they didn't know what was happening and in one book about a kid who went through the ranks of the Hitler youth, I believe he thought they were fine in the camps and thought people just moved away. From what I've read, the Holocaust was a pretty open secret in Germany. Wikipedia [1] cites studies suggesting tha…

What have you been reading?

And an open secret pretty much means it wasn't public policy or politics. And higher estimates don't really make sense, why were the allied forces in the dark? Why were the death camps in Poland and not Germany?

People who were living nearby, I will never be convinced they didn't know. But expecting someone in Fankfurt am Main to know about the mass executions happening in small towns in Poland during a time where the country was at war and trying to keep things hush hush so the allied forces don't find out.

> Johnson suggests (in disagreement with his co-author) that it is more likely that about 50% of the German population were aware of the atrocities being committed against the Jewish people and other enemies identified by the Nazi regime.[46]

To me this reads as someone wanting to say a high number to make things sound bad. There are always people who are going to do that. And I think this thread is exactly that. Frame it in the worst possible way to make a point. But the realities are different. To disagree with experts in the field to say they're wrong and it was something different from what they say is arrogance at the highest order. Especially, when basic logic and reasoning say it wasn't politically motivated. It was motivated by a deranged lunatic who hatred of Jews dates all the way back to when he lived in Vienna and whose hatred of Jews got in the way of everything else which is shown by the fact he increased the killings at the end of the war.

The fact, the holocaust as we know it didn't really start until well after political decisions were made. So really, I think it's a fair question to ask was an event that happened well after politics was important a political event or are making it one to fit our narrative? So far the answers have been that it was a clear policy which has been refuted and instead it was an open secret with numbers of people who knew being refuted by the very source that is giving them.

Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#38

The Polish law in question that sparked the controversy is very 1930s Germany in nature, as can be seen if we replace "Russian" with "Jewish" in the description (and "Poland" with "Germany"): > "(AP) The law would establish a state commission for investigating Russian influence in Poland and on national security with the powers of prosecutor and judge." Given that the adoption of totalitarian powers is more-or-less r…

Judaism is a largely unorganized religion with no military. Russia is a large hostile state with a history of attacking Poland and possessor of, at one point, a strong military.

The Nazi belief at the time was that Judaism was an integral component of "Judeo-Bolshevism" i.e. the USSR so it is not correct to assert that there was "no military" -- the USSR had a rapidly growing industrial military.

German fascists thought that all Jewish people were in cahoots with the USSR, which was Definitely trying to conquer all of Europa.

Polish fascists think all ethnically Russian people are in cahoots with the RF MoD, which is Definitely trying to conquer all of Europa.

It is a similar situation and we shouldn't succumb to historical revisionism.

Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#39
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The nazi desire to exterminate all Jews was known. Jews were killed in the streets of towns. Some even involved mass killings. Towns bragged about being Jew free. Ignorance does not fly. Yes there was some uncertainty of what happened at the camps. But it was well known even at the time that nazi’s camps meant death.

Actually, there was only ever a mention of a final solution. No real understanding of what that meant. This resulted in allied forces, who had spies throughout the Third Reich, being completely shocked by the camps when they found them. The fact, Allied Forces who were better informed than the average German Ciziten had no idea what was happening is a major sign that they didn't know. Furthermore, if you read any of…

This is straight up holocaust denial.

First hand documents (letters and memoirs) of polish jews show that rumors of death camps in germany were common as early as 1942, and some had word of mouth knowledge that later turned out to be almost completely accurate. By 1944 accounts from jews all over europe show routine knowledge of death camps in germany & hungary.

Pogroms had been going on for years at that point. People knew what the final solution was intended to be. Jews a country away certainly did anyway, why would germans not?

Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#40
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Furthermore, the majority of victims of the holocaust weren't Jewish The Holocaust is defined in the first sentence as "the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jewish men, women and children by the Nazi regime and its collaborators." I don't think you really meant to claim that "majority of victims of the holocaust weren't Jewish".

Look at the victim counts in the document titled "DOCUMENTING NUMBERS OF VICTIMS OF THE HOLOCAUST AND NAZI PERSECUTION". If you wish to argue with with them over it, feel free.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documentin...

I think this is the link you are talking about.

Under the "number of deaths section":

> Jews: 6 million

> Soviet civilians: around 7 million (including 1.3 Soviet Jewish civilians, who are included in the 6 million figure for Jews)

>Repeat criminal offenders and so-called asocials: at least 70,000

etc

So yes, I think you are right, non-jews were killed as apart of the holocaust, but it is defined as "The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jewish men, women and children by the Nazi regime and its collaborators."

I agree it doesn't really seem fair to ignore the other 50% of people that were killed and only ever define it as the killing of Jews.

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