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Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

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Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#11

Post by arrosenberg »

that_guy_iain wrote: post #6
gumby wrote: post #4

I understand the museum's position. However IMHO they missed an important teaching moment. The holocaust was very much a political event, and to treat it otherwise is to excuse the broad public support that political movement had, and the widespread public participation involved. Yes, the use in mass political* advertising can trivialize the crime by repetitive imagery, and I presume this is the origin of the stance…

> The holocaust was very much a political event, and to treat it otherwise is to excuse the broad public support that political movement had, and the widespread public participation involved. Was it a political event tho? It wasn't something the Nazis were openly announcing they were doing. Sending them to camps was one thing, pretty much every country ended up creating camps to keep people during that time. If they…

> If they were humanly treated in the camps there wouldn't be so much of an issue.

Wrong. We've made a pretty big deal over Manzanar and other Japanese-American internment camps, despite their being "more humane".

Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#12

Post by photochemsyn »

The Polish law in question that sparked the controversy is very 1930s Germany in nature, as can be seen if we replace "Russian" with "Jewish" in the description (and "Poland" with "Germany"):

> "(AP) The law would establish a state commission for investigating Russian influence in Poland and on national security with the powers of prosecutor and judge."

Given that the adoption of totalitarian powers is more-or-less required for the initiation of genocidal programs by a state (i.e. elimination of separation of powers between executive, legislative, and judicial branches, implementation of secret decision-making, removal of citizen's rights to a fair trial, etc.), pointing out the similarities isn't some crime against the memory of the Holocaust. Nipping such behavior in the bud is what prevents it from happening again.

Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#14

Post by that_guy_iain »

arrosenberg wrote: post #11
that_guy_iain wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The holocaust was very much a political event, and to treat it otherwise is to excuse the broad public support that political movement had, and the widespread public participation involved. Was it a political event tho? It wasn't something the Nazis were openly announcing they were doing. Sending them to camps was one thing, pretty much every country ended up creating camps to keep people during that time. If they…

> If they were humanly treated in the camps there wouldn't be so much of an issue. Wrong. We've made a pretty big deal over Manzanar and other Japanese-American internment camps, despite their being "more humane".

Comparing Japanese-American internment camps to Auschwitz is a disgraceful thing to do. In no way shape or form were they as big of a problem as Auschwitz.

The German POW camps were brutal and left POWs looking like walking skeletons, but we barely mention them. Holding people in camps wasn't the problem, killing them en masse was. many of the victims of the holocaust didn't even make it to camps. The majority of the victims of the holocaust were "soviet" civilians who weren't Jewish. It wasn't the camps, it was the killing people.

Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#15

Post by zeteo »

gumby wrote: post #4

I understand the museum's position. However IMHO they missed an important teaching moment. The holocaust was very much a political event, and to treat it otherwise is to excuse the broad public support that political movement had, and the widespread public participation involved. Yes, the use in mass political* advertising can trivialize the crime by repetitive imagery, and I presume this is the origin of the stance…

Comparing your political opponents with Nazis is a very violent form of public discourse that should be reserved for actual perpetrators of mass atrocities. If people actually believe it, then it makes physical violence against your opponents seem acceptable or even desirable ("punch a Nazi"). Basically, when you're saying someone is a Nazi then it means you want to treat them like the Nazis were treated after WW2. This implies at least removing their political rights, and possibly imprisoning and executing them as well.

Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#16

Post by that_guy_iain »

bushbaba wrote: post #8
that_guy_iain wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The holocaust was very much a political event, and to treat it otherwise is to excuse the broad public support that political movement had, and the widespread public participation involved. Was it a political event tho? It wasn't something the Nazis were openly announcing they were doing. Sending them to camps was one thing, pretty much every country ended up creating camps to keep people during that time. If they…

The nazi desire to exterminate all Jews was known. Jews were killed in the streets of towns. Some even involved mass killings. Towns bragged about being Jew free. Ignorance does not fly. Yes there was some uncertainty of what happened at the camps. But it was well known even at the time that nazi’s camps meant death.

Actually, there was only ever a mention of a final solution. No real understanding of what that meant. This resulted in allied forces, who had spies throughout the Third Reich, being completely shocked by the camps when they found them. The fact, Allied Forces who were better informed than the average German Ciziten had no idea what was happening is a major sign that they didn't know.

Furthermore, if you read any of the books written by Germans who lived through that time they'll often say they didn't know what was happening and in one book about a kid who went through the ranks of the Hitler youth, I believe he thought they were fine in the camps and thought people just moved away.

Now, in other countries such as the Netherlands the story was different but victims often know the full truth instead of getting told a story. Rewriting history isn't that cool.

Furthermore, the majority of victims of the holocaust weren't Jewish, they were civilians. [1]

[1] https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documentin...

Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#18

Post by discordianfish »

that_guy_iain wrote: post #6
gumby wrote: post #4

I understand the museum's position. However IMHO they missed an important teaching moment. The holocaust was very much a political event, and to treat it otherwise is to excuse the broad public support that political movement had, and the widespread public participation involved. Yes, the use in mass political* advertising can trivialize the crime by repetitive imagery, and I presume this is the origin of the stance…

> The holocaust was very much a political event, and to treat it otherwise is to excuse the broad public support that political movement had, and the widespread public participation involved. Was it a political event tho? It wasn't something the Nazis were openly announcing they were doing. Sending them to camps was one thing, pretty much every country ended up creating camps to keep people during that time. If they…

No, it was widely know. I'm sure you didn't intent this but this 'excuse' is the talking point of neonazis here in Germany to deflect guilt and relativize what happened.

Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#19

Post by breakingrules »

zeteo wrote: post #15
gumby wrote: post #4

I understand the museum's position. However IMHO they missed an important teaching moment. The holocaust was very much a political event, and to treat it otherwise is to excuse the broad public support that political movement had, and the widespread public participation involved. Yes, the use in mass political* advertising can trivialize the crime by repetitive imagery, and I presume this is the origin of the stance…

Comparing your political opponents with Nazis is a very violent form of public discourse that should be reserved for actual perpetrators of mass atrocities. If people actually believe it, then it makes physical violence against your opponents seem acceptable or even desirable ("punch a Nazi"). Basically, when you're saying someone is a Nazi then it means you want to treat them like the Nazis were treated after WW2. T…

[dead]
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