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Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

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Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#331
post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a philosophical argument, not an evidence-based argument. Do you have a criticism of it other than that you are an empiricist who dislikes philosophy? Do you have a rival idea which isn't refuted?

Philosophers use evidence all the time in support of their arguments, especially when they are making empirical claims (as you are: you are claiming that the costs of government outweigh the benefits when it comes to the provision of public goods). If you choose to not use evidence, then it is important to be far more careful and charitable than you have been. E.g., in your "simple argument" you only consider example…

> Philosophers use evidence all the time in support of their arguments, especially when they are making empirical claims (as you are: you are claiming that the costs of government outweigh the benefits when it comes to the provision of public goods).

That's a moral not empirical claim. You can't measure what is morally better than what.

Also that isn't my claim: I said nothing about what outweighs what, and I object to such arguments.

You complain that I don't give a sympathetic reading to free rider problems -- without details, presumably simply because you disagree with me -- but then what do you do? You characterize my views grossly inaccurately by throwing in a bunch of your own assumptions.

HN has terrible UI for finding new replies to comments like this, where they are nested under other comments I wrote, so I don't intend to check again. If you want to have a serious discussion and perhaps learn something, reply at: http://groups.google.com/group/rational-politics-list?hl=en

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#332
Let me try to shed light on the other side of the argument. Based on the author's experience, it looks like what is really necessary for this day and age is a public browsing center with enough resources to teach computer "illiterates" [for a lack of a better word] how to find what they want in the digital world. NOT a library per se...now you might ask what the difference is : having a public library implies money has to spent on buying and managing books- which can be prohibitively expensive.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#333
post #327
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's essentially the thought process behind the downvotes: You: "the market organises to elevate the best and raise standards for all others" Everybody else: "And I'm the Queen of England." "The market" is not some intelligent, charitable entity. It's an abstraction employed to talk about how participating entities allocate their resources. It categorically does not help everyone. In fact, in many cases it can hurt…

Your outline of the thought process behind Mikey7 downvotes is a lucid, intelligent argument with his belief about "the market." And you're saying this is the reason you vote to have him silenced? I kind of think maybe a better reason might be because a commenter engages in trolling or some other behavior that's out of bounds, which might very well be the case here with Mikey7. But I appreciate having this thought pr…

If you think "You are making wild and horrible claims without any substantiating evidence" is the same thing as "I disagree with you," I don't know what to say but that you're wrong. My objection is that he appears to be mindlessly spouting dogma, and a dangerous one at that. If he made a cogent argument that disagreed with my beliefs, that would be one thing, but his comments are the libertarian equivalent of "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve."

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#334
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe some points of view are seen as trolling and not as genuine discourse?

That seems a very uncharitable position to me. I strongly disagree with her/him, but unless you consider any opinion that strongly deviates from the median to be trolling, I don't see why would it be.

I think it's more that his arguments didn't seem to have considered the situation he was addressing at all. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, but he provided no evidence or reasoning at all. His comments were not particularly more substantial than "I like pizza," though their implications were a lot more harmful. I understand that you don't like to see unpopular opinions downvoted, but at the same time, vapid comments should not be protected just because they express an unpopular opinion.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, let it be said that reading through your comments in this thread has driven me to drinking. I'm heading out to the local watering hole, but, before I do, I want to make a couple of points. First, a library is most assuredly a public good in that it provides services that it can only provide which are not directed at profit-making. It serves many civic purposes and provides many services to the community. This…

...public goods of communal learning, discourse, shared meeting spaces, free internet access... Just because you stick the word "public good" and "free" in front of something you want other people to pay for doesn't make those services non-rivalrous and non-excludible. As for NSF grants (note: webpage is way outdated, haven't been at NYU for years), the theory behind their public benefit is that published scientific…

It's not an ad hominem to point out an inconsistency. If your argument is a fair one, then it ought to apply to something that's more immediate to you. The point is that most of the time, it's much easier to say something is worthless if it's more important to somebody else or some other group than yourself or the groups you consider yourself a member of.

I notice your tendency to lecture other commenters and throw down links (usually to Wikipedia, which is precious), so I feel comfortable talking this way to you. I appreciate the link to the guidelines, but I can go through them with you some time so it's clear I didn't violate any of them. I'd say anything I said here to your face, happily and as courteously as possible.

It's funny that you find it fitting to try to hold internet court and talk down to commenters who are making very valid points and pretend you're winning arguments because of those trusty Wikipedia articles. But your arguments aren't that good, with the Wikisalt and Wikipepper or without them. The point here is that the community benefits from pooling resources for a shared service. The benefit is demonstrated daily in real utility in the very real lives of very real people. It is quite arguably much less abstract than any good, public or private, provided by those nebulous NSF grants you got so sensitive about. I think you understand very well that we're talking about shared services that don't lend themselves to provision on a for-profit basis. But I think, judging by your mountain of pedantic comments, you'd much prefer to pretend you don't and keep splitting hairs and posting Wikipedia links.

The rhetoric here in this latest comment is pretty classic internet-libertarian nonsense in the classic internet-libertarian shit-eating seriously-I'm-really-smart-Mom tenor, talking about how I want other people to pay for things I want. Who do you think you are? You want to live on a libertarian island? Take your superior intellect and your gone-Galt friends and start building. At some point, people are going to want some services. And you'll be right back in a town hall meeting where some people will have come to their senses and arrived at the obvious conclusion: communities are a good thing and require cooperation and shared services. I'm sure that some of your crew, perhaps yourself included, will go on with this I'm-an-island act, but at that point a large percentage of your own internet-libertarian brethren will have grown oh so weary of the whole schtick and come to another obvious conclusion: it's really not a philosophy at all but rather a thin pretense for being an asshole. It's a self-sanctioning of your own shallowness and selfishness and immorality. If you believe the highest good is to never contribute to anything shared, then I hope, and feel confident, that you'll largely get your wish.

I'd like to be more friendly here, but I've grown very tired of being lectured everywhere on the internet by people of your mind. I think there are really very few of you (the Universe is merciful in this regard, I hope), but you are a whining screeching loud bunch. You can go Galt. I hope you do it very fast and very far away from the rest of us who like public libraries and good public schools for all children and decent streets and sidewalks and sanitation and all the other thousands of things that we all depend on. If you don't like nice things for everybody, that's fine. Don't use them. But, for the love of all that is holy, stop trying to convince yourself and the rest of us that your greed and selfishness and neighbor-loathing is somehow virtue.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#336
post #313

OP's statement is a strong argument against libraries. We're spending good money on buildings full of books that inadvertently provide some really important social services. If you've got a bucket catching drips from your leaky roof, you need roof repairs, not a better bucket. Here in England, we have an organisation that does exactly what the OP is espousing - guiding people who don't know where to turn for help. It…

You are flat-out wrong about Americans and their willingness to give up their time for charitable causes [1]. Interestingly I am also British and my impression from American friends and acquaintances was generally the opposite to yours: many of them had volunteered in the past or were involved with volunteering, which is something I came across less frequently in the UK (I emigrated 4 years ago so this may have chang…

Both figures are disingenuous. American charitability has to be seen through the prism of religiosity. An exceptionally high proportion of American donation and volunteering is done through church groups and the vast majority of that activity should not reasonably be considered 'giving'. A church-sanctioned rock band will be included in the statistics as an enormous number of volunteer hours. A church organisation is a tax-deductible charity, regardless of whether it achieves any charitable aims.

Britain's Gini coefficient is substantially distorted because of London. The Gini coefficient is a pure measure of income inequality, so is massively influenced by the presence of people with exceptionally high incomes. It tells you almost nothing about the gap between the middle class and the working class in a developed country. When your country includes a megalopolis that's the world's most popular playground for billionaires and tax haven for multinationals, that distorts the figures somewhat. Factor out a couple of London boroughs and our Gini index changes dramatically. Likewise, France's Gini index would plummet if they had a territorial claim to Monaco.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#337
post #144
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People write TLDRs for their comments whenever they feel they expended more words on the topic than they feel were necessary, it doesn't imply an expectation that no one else would read it. When I write a fervent wall of text I think is worthy of reading in full, I don't put on a TLDR, I just pity the fool who doesn't take the time to partake of dense knowledge. So, TLDR, it is the author feeling the content is lacki…

" TLDR, it is the author feeling the content is lacking in a dense section of text more than the reader having a limited attention span that leads to TLDR's. " There is no evidence that "feralchimp" (who wrote the TLDR here on Hacker News) is the same as "codacorolla" (who wrote the original comment on Metafilter).

I just meant in the general case about TLDR's, not just in one particular instance. Existentialism happpened.
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