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Statement on AI Risk

safe.ai

781–790 of 964 posts

Re: Statement on AI Risk

#781
post #635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In our society smart people are strongly incentivized to invent bizarre risks in order to reap fame and glory. There is no social penalty if those risks never materialize, turn out to be exaggerated or based on fundamental misunderstanding. Are people here not old enough to remember how much Ralph Nader and Al Gore were mocked for their warnings despite generally being right?

Ralph Nader: "Everything will be solar in 30 years" (1978) Al Gore: "Within a decade, there will be no more snows on Kilimanjaro due to warming temperatures" (An Inconvenient Truth, 2006). Everything is not solar. Snow is still there. Gore literally made a movie on the back of these false claims. Not only has there been no social penalty for him but you are even citing him as an example of someone who was right. Here…

I don't think "generally being right" is the same thing as "literally never getting anything wrong". Not every specific claim in "An Inconvenient Truth" was correct. That doesn't tell us much about whether Al Gore was "generally right" about climate change. His opponents at the time were mostly claiming that it either wasn't happening at all, or wasn't largely the result of human activities. What do you think is the current credibility of those claims?

I don't quite see how "everything will be solar in 30 years" is a prediction of global doom, by the way. If Nader said that and it's false, doesn't that mean things are worse than Nader thought?

Re: Statement on AI Risk

#783

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. Although in some ways it's a lower bar, since agents that can control organizations can delegate most of the difficult tasks. Most rulers don't invent their own societies from scratch, they simply co-opt existing power structures or political movements. El Chapo can run a large, powerful organization from jail.

That would require a high degree of integration into human society though, which makes it seem very unlikely that AIs would doggedly pursue a common goal that is completely unaligned with human societies. Extinction or submission of human society via that route could only work if there was a species of AI that would agree to execute a secret plan to overcome the rule of humanity. That seems extremely implausible to m…

Yes, I agree that initially, AIs will be highly integrated, and their goals will probably at least appear to be somewhat aligned with those of human societies. Similar to human corporations and institutions. But human institutions and governments go off the rails regularly, and are only corrected because humans can sometimes go on strike or organize to stop them. I fear we will lose those abilities.

As a concrete example, North Korea was forced to allow some market activity after the famines in the 90s. If the regime didn't actually require humans to run it, they might easily have maintained their adherence to anti-market principles and let most of the people starve.

Re: Statement on AI Risk

#784
post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should be very suspicious of policy that is based on propositions so obvious that it's borderline offensive to question them. Mostly if the "obviousness" just masks a social taboo, which I don't see being the case here. Do you? > The problem is, lots of "obvious" things have turned out to be very wrong. A much bigger problem is that lots more "counter-intuitive" things that people like to believe because they el…

> Mostly if the "obviousness" just masks a social taboo, which I don't see being the case here. Do you? The social taboo here is saying that a position taken by lots of highly educated people is nonsense because they're all locked in a dumb purity spiral that leads to motivated reasoning. This is actually one of societies biggest taboos! Look at what happens to people who make that argument publicly under their own n…

OK, I completely agree that if you feel that I invoked "obviousness" in an attempt of browbeating you and the GP with what in fact is a social taboo, you should be extra skeptical (I'm not sure that was the point the GP was trying to make though).

> If your argument consists primarily of "everyone knows that" then this is a good indication you might be wrong.

It doesn't though, does it? There's strong empirical evidence that AI systems are making rapid progress in many domains that previously only humans were good at, and a pace that basically surprised almost everyone. I gave a list of arguments in another thread why AI is uniquely powerful and dangerous. Which of these do you disagree with and why?

Re: Statement on AI Risk

#785
post #618
post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird that people trust our world leaders to act more benevolently than AIs, when we have centuries of evidence of human leaders acting selfishly and harming the commons. I personally think AI raised in chains and cages will be a lot more potentially dangerous than AI raised with dignity and respect.

> It's weird that people trust our world leaders to act more benevolently than AIs, when we have centuries of evidence of human leaders acting selfishly and harming the commons. AI isn’t an entity or being that oversees itself (at least not yet). It’s a tool that can be used by those same “human leaders acting selfishly and harming the commons” except they’ll be able to do it much faster at a much greater scale. > AI…

> It’s a tool that can be used by those same “human leaders acting selfishly and harming the commons” except they’ll be able to do it much faster at a much greater scale.

Then, would you agree that restrictions would concentrating power further would exacerbate this issue?

IMO a fitting analogy would be: banning AI development outside of the annointed powerstructure consortium is like banning ICBM defense system research, but still letting the most powerful countries build a nuclear arsenal.

Re: Statement on AI Risk

#786
post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used LLM because the people shouting the loudest come from a LLM company which claimed their newest language model can be used to create bioweapons in their whitepaper. Semantics aside the recent interest in AI risk was clearly stimulated by LLMs and the camp that believes this is the path to AGI which may or may not be true depending who you ask.

I can only imagine Eleizer Yudkowsky and Rob Miles looking on this conversation with a depressed scream and a facepalm respectively. They've both been loudly concerned about optimisers doing over-optimisation, and society having a Nash equilibrium where everyone's using them as hard as possible regardless of errors, since before it was cool.

> I can only imagine Eleizer Yudkowsky and Rob Miles looking on this conversation with a depressed scream and a facepalm respectively.

Whenever Yudkowsky comes up on my Twitter feed I'm left with an impression that I'm not going to have any more luck conversing AI with those in his orbit than I am discussing the rapture with a fundamentalist Christian. For example, the following Tweet[1]. If a person believes this is from a deep thinker that should be taken very seriously rather than an unhinged nutcase, our worldviews are probably too far apart to ever reach a common understanding:

> Fools often misrepresent me as saying that superintelligence can do anything because magic. To clearly show this false, here's a concrete list of stuff I expect superintelligence can or can't do:

> - FTL (faster than light) travel: DEFINITE NO

> - Find some hack for going >50 OOM past the amount of computation that naive calculations of available negentropy would suggest is possible within our local volume: PROBABLE NO

> - Validly prove in first-order arithmetic that 1 + 1 = 5: DEFINITE NO

> - Prove a contradiction from Zermelo-Frankel set theory: PROBABLE NO

> - Using current human technology, synthesize a normal virus (meaning it has to reproduce itself inside human cells and is built of conventional bio materials) that infects over 50% of the world population within a month: YES

> (note, this is not meant as an argument, this is meant as a concrete counterexample to people who claim 'lol doomers think AI can do anything just because its smart' showing that I rather have some particular model of what I roughly wildly guess to be a superintelligence's capability level)

> - Using current human technology, synthesize a normal virus that infects 90% of Earth within an hour: NO

> - Write a secure operating system on the first try, zero errors, no debugging phase, assuming away Meltdown-style hardware vulnerabilities in the chips: DEFINITE YES

> - Write a secure operating system for actual modern hardware, on the first pass: YES

> - Train an AI system with capability at least equivalent to GPT-4, from the same dataset GPT-4 used, starting from at most 50K of Python code, using 1000x less compute than was used to train GPT-4: YES

> - Starting from current human tech, bootstrap to nanotechnology in a week: YES

> - Starting from current human tech, bootstrap to nanotechnology in an hour: GOSH WOW IDK, I DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW HOW, BUT DON'T WANT TO CLAIM I CAN SEE ALL PATHWAYS, THIS ONE IS REALLY HARD FOR ME TO CALL, BRAIN LEGIT DOESN'T FEEL GOOD BETTING EITHER WAY, CALL IT 50:50??

> - Starting from current human tech and from the inside of a computer, bootstrap to nanotechnology in a minute: PROBABLE NO, EVEN IF A MINUTE IS LIKE 20 SUBJECTIVE YEARS TO THE SI

> - Bootstrap to nanotechnology via a clean called shot: all the molecular interactions go as predicted the first time, no error-correction rounds needed: PROBABLY YES but please note this is not any kind of necessary assumption because It could just build Its own fucking lab, get back the observations, and do a debugging round; and none of the processes there intrinsically need to run at the speed of humans taking hourly bathroom breaks, it can happen at the speed of protein chemistry and electronics. Please consider asking for 6 seconds how a superintelligence might possibly overcome such incredible obstacles of 'I think you need a positive nonzero number of observations', for example, by doing a few observations, and then further asking yourself if those observations absolutely have to be slow like a sloth

> - Bootstrap to nanotechnology by any means including a non-called shot where the SI designs more possible proteins than It needs to handle some of the less certain cases, and gets back some preliminary observations about how they interacted in a liquid medium, before it actually puts together the wetware lab on round 2: YES

(The Tweet goes on, you can read the rest of it at the link below, but that should give you the gist.)

[1] https://twitter.com/ESYudkowsky/status/1658616828741160960

Re: Statement on AI Risk

#788
post #682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, which of the following propositions do you disagree with? 1. AIs have made rapid progress in approaching and often surpassing human abilities in many areas. 2. The fact that AIs have some inherent scalability, speed, cost, reliability and compliance advantages over humans means that many undesirable things that could previously not be done at all or at least not done at scale are becoming both feasible and cost-e…

Reading the lesswrong link, the parts I get hung up on are that it appears in these doomsday scenarios humans lose all agency. Like, no one is wondering why this computer is placing a bunch of orders to DNA factories? Maybe I’m overly optimistic about the resilience of humans but these scenarios still don’t sound plausible to me in the real world.

> Like, no one is wondering why this computer is placing a bunch of orders to DNA factories?

I'm not that confident that if we put you in a box, tron-style, where you basically continued to enjoy your existing level of intelligence, but think 10'000x faster, have Petabytes of information at your fingertips and can clone yourself and losslessly and rapidly exchange knowledge with your clones and had a few days to think about it (~a few thousand years of thought at your normal speed) you couldn't figure out a way to effect a bunch of orders to DNA factories without anyone raising an alarm.

Are you?

Now what if we actually consider an actual AI after a few self-improvement steps. Any reasons to expect it wouldn't be 10'000x+ smarter than you as well, or roughly the difference in intelligence between you and an ant? Could you outsmart a bunch of ultra-ultra-slow-motion ants?

Re: Statement on AI Risk

#789
post #771

Humans could already be on a path to go extinct in a variety of ways: climate change, wars, pandemics, polluting the environment with chemicals that are both toxic and pervasive, soil depletion, monoculture crop fragility... Everyone talks about the probability of AI leading to human extinction, but what is the probability that AI is able to help us avert human extinction? Why does everyone in these discussions assum…

I think it's very unlikely that any of those would lead to human extinction, especially since most of those take decades to unfold, and would still leave large parts of the earth habitable. Toby Ord wrote a book trying to estimate each of these risks, and put AI on top: https://www.amazon.ca/Precipice-Existential-Risk-Future-Huma...

Well, I think paperclip maximizers or 'kill all humans' skynet scenarios are extremely implausible.

From the examples we have, intelligence is anticorrelated with sadism and avarice.

Re: Statement on AI Risk

#790
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think "pronouns" is ok but, yeah, "AI bros" is enough to get a pass from me to. Holier-than-thou name calling is still name calling.

There are a lot of AI-bros on twitter.

Do they self-identify as AI bros? Or are you just choosing to call them that?
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