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Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

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Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#261

Post by BeFlatXIII »

weinzierl wrote: post #55

I disagree with the general sentiment in this thread that this is a useless immature move. Sure, Crab will almost certainly not replace Rust, but that is not the goal. The ultimate objective is to influence Rust stakeholders' decisions. This is similar to a strike where ultimately your goal is not to destroy the company or to quit and leave, but to achieve better conditions. In both cases it sometimes works and somet…

Or voting third-party with the hope that it makes the margin of victory for the "serious" candidate fall within the number of third-party voters.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#262

Post by jacquesm »

arp242 wrote: post #104
jacquesm wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not our choice, but we can debate the choice. I think it's a bad choice, for many reasons, one of which is that having multiple competing forks that are all Rust but not quite isn't going to help Rust adoption and is going to cause fence sitters to look somewhere else. Whenever this kind of drama hits a language eco-system it is bad for the language, there is plenty of precedent.

I suppose so, but I don't think the effects will be all that large. And we can just as much blame the Rust Foundation people for putting out a trademark policy that's completely bonkers and more strict than almost any trademark policy (including those from Oracle, Microsoft, etc.) If you don't want people to take radical actions then don't do radical things. Besides, a number of forks have had a positive effect on th…

> Emacs, GCC, GNU libc, Vim

GCC had a standard to live up to (and it extended that standard in plenty of ways), the others aren't languages per se and do not and never did have the mission to appeal to the people that write non-sexy system software for a living. They value stability and a lack of drama in the suppliers of their tools above all else because any kind of fragmentation has the potential to cause them to have to (much) more work and they usually already have plenty of that.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#263

Post by rowanG077 »

colesantiago wrote: post #251
rowanG077 wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it did survive. I can't view rejoining the forked from repository as dying.

Who is still using the io.js fork? Nobody? That is my point.

Everyone who is using node.js is using it... Anyway you and I have a different idea of what it means to die. The identifier io.js is no longer in use. But everything that it actually is, is now node.js.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#264

Post by gigatexal »

gigatexal wrote: post #258
codeflo wrote: post #35

For anyone critizing this: From the trademark bullshit to the conference drama, it's clear at this point that someone with influence in the Rust foundation is behaving like an asshole and damaging the project. That can happen in open source, see Stallman and others. It's also clear that others at the Rust foundation tolerate this behavior, downplay it, don't understand the impact, don't want to go against a "respecte…

Okay this is fine but will they have the commercial backing that Rust has from the likes of Microsoft and Mozilla and others? Are the languages different? Is the fork just to fix the management or will the languages diverge/have they already?

from the main [site](https://crablang.org/):

"The Official Home of CrabLang!

A community fork of a language named after a plant fungus. All of the memory-safe features you love, now with 100% less bureaucracy!

Why CrabLang?

The Crab (or “CrabLang”) community fork was created as a lighthearted yet measured response to the growing concerns within the community about the influence of corporations and the restrictive trademark policy proposed by the foundation. This was not a "knee-jerk" reaction, nor was it an attempt to spread fear or cause panic. While the document the foundation drafted did lead to the fork, we believe it is an overdue solution to a problem that already existed, and addresses some issues that many community members have had for some time.

First and foremost: CrabLang is not trying to replace our beloved language. If you are happy with the way things are, we encourage you to continue using your language of choice. Our goal is not to fracture the community, but rather to provide an alternative for those who share our concerns and wish to have more freedom in using, creating with, and promoting the language without worrying about the litigation associated with trademark infringement.

We acknowledge and appreciate the hard work and financial support that corporations have provided to the original project. We understand the importance of their contributions, but we also believe that it is essential to maintain a balance between corporate influence and the will of the community. The CrabLang Collective aims to provide a space where the community can thrive without the constraints imposed by corporate interests.

We want to emphasize that we are not at odds with the project or the original language. We appreciate everything they do to make the language better, and our fork's main branch will continue to stay up to date with the upstream codebase. Our main goal is to ensure that the community has an alternative that aligns with their values and desire for unrestricted use.

The Crab community fork is driven by our love for a language named after a type of fungus. We simply want to use it while retaining the ability to create content and promote its name, logo, and other assets however we please, without the limitations imposed by a trademark policy. By offering a community-driven alternative, we hope to maintain a spirit of collaboration, innovation, and creative freedom.

With our shared passion for programming, we welcome anyone interested to join us in exploring the Crab community fork. Whether or not you fully agree with our concerns, we believe that diversity of thought and a commitment to inclusivity will only strengthen our collective efforts.

Come on in! The water is warm!

CrabLang 2023"

Got it now.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#265

Post by jacquesm »

arp242 wrote: post #202
toyg wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A wiser and less ego-centric Stallman would have stepped back decades ago. I don't agree. For all his limits, Stallman maintained an ideological purity that is required to firmly signpost one end of the Overton window. Opensource licenses and projects can mix and match rights and regulations, but you will always have an unwatered GPL option, there to remind people of what the original ideal looked like. Compare the…

It's about effective advocacy. Stallman can think or do whatever he wants, but he is not and has never been an effective advocate. And from an advocacy position, ideological purity almost never works. An advocacy organisation like the FSF should be pragmatically "climbing the ladder" one step at a time, not insisting on an instantaneous revolution. You might as well advocate for the moon to be painted blue: it's just…

> Stallman can think or do whatever he wants, but he is not and has never been an effective advocate.

Stallman has been right more often then wrong and has made his points forcefully, consistent and without compromise over decades. He's backed up his words with his deeds, has contributed an incredible amount of software and has been a very important factor in jumpstarting the free software movement. He provided a framework and a set of mechanisms for sharing software in a way that effectively aligns the rights of various parties, has convinced millions of programmers to give away the fruit of their labor for the betterment of the world in general and the relationship of end users with software in particular.

I really don't see what else one could wish for in an effective advocate.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#267

Post by jntvjnvutnuvt »

dmeijboom wrote: post #14

This happened a while ago and was related to the trademark/copyright issue. It’s an immature move and I can’t take this seriously. All this does is creating unnecessary drama surrounding the Rust foundation.

The Rust Foundation thinks it's okay to sue you for altering its logo. That is nuts.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#269

Post by esarbe »

dale_glass wrote: post #208
liotier wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ideological purity is the point. A whole range of other options are available but ideological purity is what Stallman offers, with no expectation that everyone will appreciate its benefits. The very existence of the FSF's offerings is necessary to understand what other positions compromise to obtain other benefits.

Okay, but Stallman's non-purity related bad qualities are a problem for his own mission. Eg, Stallman is reported as creeping women out in the link above. That has nothing to do with his uncompromising ideals regarding software. So maybe Stallman could quietly retire to some sort of metaphorical ivory tower, and keep producing uncompromising ideology, which could be then evangelized by somebody less creepy. There's n…

It would be good if you would not repeat unsubstantiated rumors.

No credible allegation have brought forward against Stallman's behavior regarding women. It's all hearsay and we should avoid hearsay and rumors.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#270

Post by jntvjnvutnuvt »

hurril wrote: post #85
codeflo wrote: post #35

For anyone critizing this: From the trademark bullshit to the conference drama, it's clear at this point that someone with influence in the Rust foundation is behaving like an asshole and damaging the project. That can happen in open source, see Stallman and others. It's also clear that others at the Rust foundation tolerate this behavior, downplay it, don't understand the impact, don't want to go against a "respecte…

No, what is happening is a storm in a glass of water. _This_ is what is hurting the language and the environment. You have to protect trademarks or you lose them. Having a late change to a conference is definitely bad and sad but there is simply no need for that to imply a rage quit and all this drama. That is a non-sequiteur. Suck it up, make the talk on youtube (or somewhere else); I'm sure there are lots of people…

You are okay with developers losing tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees because they altered the Rust logo?
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