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Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

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Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#211

Post by bartimus »

alkonaut wrote: post #74
codeflo wrote: post #35

For anyone critizing this: From the trademark bullshit to the conference drama, it's clear at this point that someone with influence in the Rust foundation is behaving like an asshole and damaging the project. That can happen in open source, see Stallman and others. It's also clear that others at the Rust foundation tolerate this behavior, downplay it, don't understand the impact, don't want to go against a "respecte…

I can fork the repos too, but unless I present a large group of credible and high-level contributors (that is, I fork the team too). Which people are putting their weight behind this fork? The readme doesn't mention the reason for the fork, who made it and who governs it. Which would be the most interesting info. Edit: apperently there is a main site ( https://crablang.org/ ) with more info. The most important piece…

It appears this was already brewing since (before) April 14th:

https://web.archive.org/web/20230414111812/https://crablang....

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#212

Post by Hamuko »

throw0101b wrote: post #201
liotier wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ideological purity is the point. A whole range of other options are available but ideological purity is what Stallman offers, with no expectation that everyone will appreciate its benefits. The very existence of the FSF's offerings is necessary to understand what other positions compromise to obtain other benefits.

> Ideological purity is the point. Can a person be ideologically pure and not be an asshole? Or do the two go together (as is alleged with Stallman)?

The assholes are probably firmly inside the union in the Venn diagram of "ideologically pure" and "vocal advocates".

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#213

Post by dale_glass »

modo_mario wrote: post #136
codeflo wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> his personal views (which I do not support) and eccentricity Oh wow. That's some downplaying of the actual issue, which I won't make explicit because it's absolutely disgusting. The guy made himself and his foundation untouchable for anyone with a reputation to lose, leading to a lot of effort going into "de-GNU-ification" of technology stacks. > Stallman has been a positive force It's very hard to make this kind o…

>there's a whole history of Stallman intervention in the project and resulting idiotic architecture decisions behind why that's the case. Could you expand on this? I still see him in a somewhat positive light because whilst his aspergers makes him not an optimal face to an organization his dogmatism regarding free software and the FSF's efforts in court and elsewhere have proven largely a good thing imo and I don't r…

Stallman can be blamed for the rise of Clang, basically.

He for instance prominently refused to have GCC dump the full AST because of concerns of what people might do with that which could infringe on software freedom:

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-01/msg00...

And that sort of thing suddenly made the non-GPL competition relevant and better.

Now LLVM isn't a tragedy by any means, it's an excellent piece of software. But here we can see Stallman sabotaging his own mission, and resulting in alternatives to GCC being popularized, and written under licenses less favorable to FSF's mission.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#214

Post by bigbillheck »

pietro72ohboy wrote: post #66
codeflo wrote: post #35

For anyone critizing this: From the trademark bullshit to the conference drama, it's clear at this point that someone with influence in the Rust foundation is behaving like an asshole and damaging the project. That can happen in open source, see Stallman and others. It's also clear that others at the Rust foundation tolerate this behavior, downplay it, don't understand the impact, don't want to go against a "respecte…

> That can happen in open source, see Stallman and others. Could you elaborate on because I'm increasingly seeing Stallman being thrown around as a bogeyman who impeded FOSS progress for years if not decades and I really dislike this trend. It seems that his personal views (which I do not support) and eccentricity is being conflated with his contributions to FOSS. I will preface this by noting that this is "my belief…

The first one that comers to mind is when he refused to allow changes to gcc to expose the AST: https://lwn.net/Articles/629259/ , and this came up in another thread a while back: https://gcc.gnu.org/legacy-ml/gcc/2001-02/msg00895.html

There was also the whole egcs thing.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#215

Post by zamalek »

alkonaut wrote: post #74
codeflo wrote: post #35

For anyone critizing this: From the trademark bullshit to the conference drama, it's clear at this point that someone with influence in the Rust foundation is behaving like an asshole and damaging the project. That can happen in open source, see Stallman and others. It's also clear that others at the Rust foundation tolerate this behavior, downplay it, don't understand the impact, don't want to go against a "respecte…

I can fork the repos too, but unless I present a large group of credible and high-level contributors (that is, I fork the team too). Which people are putting their weight behind this fork? The readme doesn't mention the reason for the fork, who made it and who governs it. Which would be the most interesting info. Edit: apperently there is a main site ( https://crablang.org/ ) with more info. The most important piece…

I'd argue that devops is somewhat more important than names, which crablang does seem to be addressing pretty quickly - the whole rustup workflow seems to be working, which is a big deal. Names will follow as names deem fit, especially when Rust leadership (following the latest issue, that is both the foundation and the project leadership) keeps making terrible decisions and terrible reparations.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#216

Post by still_grokking »

codeflo wrote: post #35

For anyone critizing this: From the trademark bullshit to the conference drama, it's clear at this point that someone with influence in the Rust foundation is behaving like an asshole and damaging the project. That can happen in open source, see Stallman and others. It's also clear that others at the Rust foundation tolerate this behavior, downplay it, don't understand the impact, don't want to go against a "respecte…

Just to get this straight: Did you just say that Stallman, the inventor of free software, is damaging OpenSource?

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#217

Post by teekert »

throw0101b wrote: post #201
liotier wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ideological purity is the point. A whole range of other options are available but ideological purity is what Stallman offers, with no expectation that everyone will appreciate its benefits. The very existence of the FSF's offerings is necessary to understand what other positions compromise to obtain other benefits.

> Ideological purity is the point. Can a person be ideologically pure and not be an asshole? Or do the two go together (as is alleged with Stallman)?

I agree with throw0101bm but then there are people like Henry Cavill.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#219

Post by hxugufjfjf »

Hamuko wrote: post #28
dmeijboom wrote: post #14

This happened a while ago and was related to the trademark/copyright issue. It’s an immature move and I can’t take this seriously. All this does is creating unnecessary drama surrounding the Rust foundation.

> All this does is creating unnecessary drama surrounding the Rust foundation. This doesn't create drama surrounding the Rust Foundation, this is drama directly caused by the Rust Foundation.

Its actually not. The most recent drama was caused by the Rust Project, not the Rust Foundation, which are two completely separate entities. This seems to be a common misunderstanding which is being spread around here, including the top comment to this post.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#220

Post by hxugufjfjf »

reaperman wrote: post #92
Hamuko wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of the non-generic ones are even worse. C? C#? C++? D? Unable to look up "C++ language". The following search tokens are too short: C

I completely agree, but C/C++ are excusable for being named before any internet search engines existed at all. The other two…well, either viewpoint would have excellent arguments pro/con.

At least with Go you can use "Golang" in search and get reasonable results. With Rust, I often have to write "rust programming language + [what im searching for]" which is really annoying. Not sure if anyone ever dubs Rust to "Rustlang".
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