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Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

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Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#141

Post by alkonaut »

commitpizza wrote: post #107
alkonaut wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politics is everywhere and everything. There is no chance of "keeping politics out of" anything. Making such a decision or rule is highly political too. This goes for sports, entertainment, culture, tech, open source.. The fact that there are "counterexamples" of successful projects that "thrive without involving politics and never had a CoC" isn't an argument to the contrary.

I get that there will be politics enough to go around and honestly I only think it strenghten my point. There is no need to bring in external politics since there is enough in the technical space alone.

I mean external politics, not "office politics". There is no meaningful way of separating any group of people working together (a company, an OSS project, whatever) and politics.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#142

Post by hurril »

jakear wrote: post #103
hurril wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, what is happening is a storm in a glass of water. _This_ is what is hurting the language and the environment. You have to protect trademarks or you lose them. Having a late change to a conference is definitely bad and sad but there is simply no need for that to imply a rage quit and all this drama. That is a non-sequiteur. Suck it up, make the talk on youtube (or somewhere else); I'm sure there are lots of people…

> You have to protect trademarks or you lose them. Let them be lost, who cares? It's not even a novel name, they just co-opted an existing word for their little gang and now don't want anyone else to use it. Even Oracle, the chief lawyer-assholes of the industry, have basically given up on trying to own "JavaScript", and that at least is a uniquely derived term.

Do you think they would care if you started a company named Oracle?

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#143

Post by porcoda »

silisili wrote: post #20
dmeijboom wrote: post #14

This happened a while ago and was related to the trademark/copyright issue. It’s an immature move and I can’t take this seriously. All this does is creating unnecessary drama surrounding the Rust foundation.

> All this does is creating unnecessary drama surrounding the Rust foundation. They are doing a fantastic job of creating drama all by themselves. I don't use Rust, but the constant childish bickering has turned me away from even caring to.

> I don't use Rust, but the constant childish bickering has turned me away from even caring to.

Same. I want to use it because technically it's the right choice for a few projects, but when I talk to people in my organization I still label it as "too immature and volatile to adopt today, but worth watching". I was hoping the adoption by Linux and Microsoft would be the forcing factor to stabilize it, but the governance aspect still seems chaotic. I'll keep watching and hopefully it calms down such that adopting it won't be a risk. Or maybe the good parts will just get adopted by a more stable (w.r.t. governance and standardization) language.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#144

Post by pydry »

devoutsalsa wrote: post #97
pydry wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He doesnt seem to be liked by some of the more powerful, corporate entities in tech, probably because he pushes some agendas that are somewhat anti-their-profits. I think this was behind the rather unsuccessful attempts to cancel him a few years ago, which cast a shadow over his reputation.

I heard Stallman speak once about FOSS. He struck me as a very interesting person, but not very flexible in his views. Even if he's 100% "right" in the long run about how digital products should be completely free, his views are so polarizing that it'd be hard to interact with him long enough to understand his positions.

For the last 30 years a strong belief in anthropogenic global warming has been polarizing too.

Sometimes appeals to moderation are valid, but I think sometimes it is entirely the wrong thing to do.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#145

Post by dijit »

oefrha wrote: post #82
dijit wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

libera.chat

Not sure what you are trying to convey. There are a ton of IRC hosts out there and they are all interchangeable. A real language fork is not interchangeable, even a different implementation of the same language is going to have its subtle compatibility problems. People pay the price for tangible benefits like performance or portability. You don’t need to use a fork and pay the technical price for it if the only benef…

Its an example of a wildly successful fork due to poor leadership, without any other technical reasons.

You can argue that “its different because its a community” but thats dishonest, because ultimately migrating an entire community is much harder than having an alternative development stream like MariaDB and MySQL.

Oh, wait, another successful fork…

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#146

Post by alkonaut »

loopdoend wrote: post #117
alkonaut wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politics is everywhere and everything. There is no chance of "keeping politics out of" anything. Making such a decision or rule is highly political too. This goes for sports, entertainment, culture, tech, open source.. The fact that there are "counterexamples" of successful projects that "thrive without involving politics and never had a CoC" isn't an argument to the contrary.

I wonder why we don't see the same thing on academic papers. Surely the people writing those papers are also affected by politics. But somehow it is acceptable for programming languages.

Academic papers are usually written by a small group. But I imagine for large collaborations like papers from LHC and similar you'd have to deal with some of the same issues any major org. It comes at you very quickly. Can you hold an important meeting on the day 2 people of 100 are away because it's a religious holiday? What do you do about the fact that the Ukrainian guy refuses to work until the Russian guy is kicked out of the team? And the research itself is of course interfacing with politics all the time whether they like it or not. Of course more in climate research or economics than in theoretical physics but it's still there.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#147

Post by solarkraft »

weinzierl wrote: post #55

I disagree with the general sentiment in this thread that this is a useless immature move. Sure, Crab will almost certainly not replace Rust, but that is not the goal. The ultimate objective is to influence Rust stakeholders' decisions. This is similar to a strike where ultimately your goal is not to destroy the company or to quit and leave, but to achieve better conditions. In both cases it sometimes works and somet…

It's the threat of people abandoning the current leadership. It has to be credible to make a change.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#148

Post by Veen »

alkonaut wrote: post #90
commitpizza wrote: post #81

Here is a good walk-through of the changes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gutR_LNoZw0 I don't particularly care about Rust but one of the reasons I've hesitated to learn / use it was because the project seemed like it was led by woke people that pushed politics into the programming space which imo is completely unnecessary. One thing I've learned by experience is that people who push their political agenda into eve…

Politics is everywhere and everything. There is no chance of "keeping politics out of" anything. Making such a decision or rule is highly political too. This goes for sports, entertainment, culture, tech, open source.. The fact that there are "counterexamples" of successful projects that "thrive without involving politics and never had a CoC" isn't an argument to the contrary.

That's an interesting way of framing a position: "I think X and all the obvious counter-examples that might prove me wrong are irrelevant.", "Why are they irrelevant?", "Because I just said they are!".

Anyway, you're equivocating around the meaning of "politics". Yes, everything involving people is political in some sense. But that isn't the sense people here are talking about.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#149

Post by jakear »

hurril wrote: post #142
jakear wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have to protect trademarks or you lose them. Let them be lost, who cares? It's not even a novel name, they just co-opted an existing word for their little gang and now don't want anyone else to use it. Even Oracle, the chief lawyer-assholes of the industry, have basically given up on trying to own "JavaScript", and that at least is a uniquely derived term.

Do you think they would care if you started a company named Oracle?

Conflating product names with legal company names does nothing to help the discussion. The fact of the matter is I can have a business called https://learnjavascript.online/ but not one called https://learnrust.online/, because the Rust team has decided they are uniquely suited to govern all usage of the word "rust" as their dumb little users can't manage to think for themselves and determine which resources are worth consulting.
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