Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for • Hacker News Board

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#541

Post by htag » Tue, May 30, 2023, 5:24 AM UTC

qingcharles wrote: post #362

I've just gone several months without access to any electronic money (e.g. debit cards, credit cards, phone etc) and it has been complicated. I've been thrown out of several stores at the checkout because they couldn't or wouldn't take cash. You also lose the ability to take advantage of many special offers that are available only through retailers apps, e.g. McDonald's. You can get the discounts, free items, nor can…

1. Why did you lose the ability?

2. What efforts were required to regain the ability?

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#542

Post by 55555 » Tue, May 30, 2023, 5:36 AM UTC

Seattle3503 wrote: post #86

londons_explore wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you visit Georgia (the country, not the state), they have a cool system for cash payments to websites. You go on the website, order your stuff. When the normal payment screen that comes up, instead of Mastercard or visa, you choose "Cash". You'll then be sent a text message with a number (or the number appears on the screen if you don't have a phone). You go to any ATM anywhere in the country, put that number into…

Do you have an account with the ATM provider? I'm wondering how these payment providers are in compliance with KYC and KYT regulatuons.

At least in Thailand, no, you do not have an account with the ATM provider to use the cash deposit functionality. The closest thing to KYC is that most ATMs have a security camera.

KYC is not needed as cash is still a thing. It’s accepted that pretty much anonymous physical transactions can and will occur and the police will need to do old fashioned detective work to find the criminal.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#543

Post by noduerme » Tue, May 30, 2023, 5:54 AM UTC

dahart wrote: post #436

red-iron-pine wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's the basis for this advice? "The GoBeRmEnT Is GoNa TrAcK YoU" Listen, you got a cell phone, and chances are that's going to give away far, far more than data that your credit card company holds on to. They're just going to have a line -- "Food Lion, [Date] $88.23" -- not detailed list of your purchases. Meanwhile if you use a membership card at any sort of grocery store, they absolutely will associate it with…

It’s not the government that concerns me, it’s the corporations. And I don’t think it’s a contest or even matters if cell phones give more data. I’m worried about both.

This line of argument seems to be common to other responders telling me my concerns are "fringy" insofar as they invoke concerns about governments.

My concerns aren't exclusive to governments or corporations. The degree of co-mingingling of personnel and regulatory capture at this point makes the difference moot. Whoever has the data on every purchase you made since 2012 can silence you, threaten you, blackmail you, or force you out of a public or private position, if there's any difference between those things now. It doesn't matter if you're innocent or the law is on your side; all that matters is perception. Someone who wants you in can hide anything you did; someone who wants you out can find the smallest detail that you accidentally allowed to be recorded, and amplify it. It really makes no difference whether it's a government agency, or a corporation. Splitting hairs on that or saying I'm necessarily paranoid because my concern runs more toward government abuse is an argument about nothing more than the superficial, speculative scenario. The data is the data, and anyone who has it has power. Power is power, and it's only realized when you can wield it over people. Handing anyone your full purchasing history is giving them the power to subjugate you.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#544

Post by lisasays » Tue, May 30, 2023, 5:58 AM UTC

shortcake27 wrote: post #537

lisasays wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not having to carry a wallet anymore. And when we inevitably leave our card somewhere and we need to get home? Or it's blocked for some random reason? Nevermind the services that just don't take cash, or the fact that their card reader might be down, etc. Doesn't seem tenable to leave the house without at least some cash in a back pocket somewhere.

> And when we inevitably leave our card somewhere and we need to get home? How is this different to cash? I also have Apple pay on my phone and watch. > Or it's blocked for some random reason I have a couple cards. Also, I've been cashless for 10 years across three countries and this has never happened. > Nevermind the services that just don't take cash Assume you mean card. Not a problem in many countries including…

How is this different to cash?

Of course there's no difference in regard to the risk of getting physically lost.

I was referring risk of carrying a single value store (independent of type).

I also have Apple pay on my phone and watch.

Not sure how that's less cognitive overhead than a physical wallet, but as you like.

From a business point of view, cash-only makes zero sense. Why would a business turn away people who want to give them money?

Margins are thin. Apparently the overhead is significant for some merchants. Such that in my part of the planet, it's not uncommon for street merchants (and small shops) to only take card payments above a certain minimum amount. Oh, and some work under the table. Cash lets them do that.

Meanwhile, the card-only places turn away customers all the time.

If you're from a country where any of these are legitimate concerns for you, it doesn't mean cashless is bad - it means the systems are bad.

Mmm - from first principles, and given that one system is orders of magnitude more complex (and subject to far many more points of failure) than the other - is may very well be an intrinsic liability of that system.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#545

Post by wwweston » Tue, May 30, 2023, 5:58 AM UTC

LewisVerstappen wrote: post #226

wwweston wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you feel differently for someone hired to break into your home and retrieve valuables or information? Or perhaps hired to perform a hit on the life of someone you care about? Transactional sex might not be something you want people drawing lines around with financial regulation, but usually people have a line.

Nope. There are other mechanisms to target illegal actions, such as sending the police to arrest the person. Those actions are guarded by due process and the right to trial. Using the financial system to target people is not.

But we're not talking about "using the financial system to target people."

We're talking about whether it's worthwhile to say something like "hey, maybe we will not allow legal markets for some things (say, murder) in our society" on top of "maybe we will ban make some activities crimes (say, murder) themselves."

Do you believe markets for murder should be legal?

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#546

Post by mym1990 » Tue, May 30, 2023, 6:10 AM UTC

KennyBlanken wrote: post #381

xg15 wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Businesses are one thing, but what I find truly dystopic about the idea of 100% cashless societies is that you could off people in the same way. If today, you lose access to your bank account for whatever reason, you still have various options how to purchase necessities: If you got some spare cash, you could use that; otherwise you could ask a friend to lend you some cash. In a cashless society, that won't work: Eve…

5% of the US population is unbanked. A "cashless" society would shut out a massive number of poor, undocumented, homeless, etc and make life even more difficult for them. It would also cause skyrocketing issues with burglary, mugging, etc. Many porn actors have been blacklisted from the US banking system. Conservatives got tired of losing US supreme court cases over censorship laws and regulations and shifted to enfo…

A side effect of this for the unbanked is probably that a new currency emerges that is used among those without access to banks. That could be just regular goods, or some other form of fiat money.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#547

Post by htag » Tue, May 30, 2023, 6:10 AM UTC

jccalhoun wrote: post #258

Is not taking cash common in the USA? I'm in a small city in the midwest so I wouldn't be surprised if it hasn't reached here yet but aside from a couple of rare stories I haven't heard much about it happening here.

West coastal.

I recently made a $1300 transaction in cash, and while the business was able to accommodate me, it took them five minutes, two drawers, and creative accounting to generate $74 in change. They were surprised to see a cash transaction. $1300 probably puts me in the top 20% of their transactions.

I once lost my keys to my car, and called a locksmith, he drove a van out to the neighborhood and provided two new locks for a cost of $700. When I started putting cash out to pay he said "holy shit" and his mannerisms changed. He then insisted he is good for repeat business. Considering the interaction happened between 11pm-1am on a Wednesday, and he took no record of my identity, I wonder what type of repeat business he was expecting from me.

I often see trendy places with staff running around with a tile or square or whatever, often operating by a teenager. I'm unsure if they have cash, and if they know how to keep a drawer that would count correctly with receipts. I imagine some of them will straight up refuse cash.

There aren't all horror stories. Anyone working a cash register in a gas station, convenience store, smoke shop, or grocery store will actually be prepared to take your physical concurrency.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#548

Post by noduerme » Tue, May 30, 2023, 6:11 AM UTC

jameshart wrote: post #478

rglover wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not yet [1]. Total symbiosis of corporations and government—to the point of making Mussolini blush—is the ultimate goal. Sure, that sounds paranoid, but look at how far we've come on that spectrum in the last 30 years. Proliferation of technology (due to its enabling of surveillance and weakening of the state) all but guarantees that future. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF4DML7FIWk

When you make statements like ‘Total symbiosis of corporations and government … is the ultimate goal’ without attributing that goal to anyone, you come off as sounding a little bit tinfoil hat. Boston Dynamics is no more (and honestly in many ways far less) enmeshed in the security state than any number of military suppliers. Seems like a poor argument that things are specifically bad now or getting worse on this fro…

I think "to the point of making Mussolini blush" gives enough background to take the comment seriously without demanding piles of documents.

Few Americans are aware even now of the role of IBM in mechanizing and tabulating the murder of Jews for the Nazis, and basically no Americans were aware of it then[0]. "They" who desire "symbiosis" between corporate power and government power - a better word would be fusion - are the same corporations who promoted fascism in the US and abroad throughout the 20th Century, whose continued efforts we can see daily through virtually all channels in our society.

Name one sphere of society in which corporate power has not merged with or overrun democratic governmental oversight. Name one environmental, social or economic battle that grassroots democratic movements or western governments have won against the corrosive force of corporate profiteering in the last 30 years.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#549

Post by kazinator » Tue, May 30, 2023, 6:12 AM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #94

Seattle3503 wrote: post #13

My concerns about a cashless society are the power it hands to a few oligopolistic credit card processors. Look at what happened to Pornhub. Regardless of whether you think Pornhub was in the wrong, it is striking that a business was cut off from global financial system by a small number of credit card companies. This was done without due process and under no countries laws. That should scare us at least a little.

I'll take this opportunity to advocate for 'payment network neutrality' - given their importance in the economy, I agree payment processors should be required to process all lawful transactions, by law. We should require this of any national payments processor in the US at the federal level - or state, I'm looking at you, CA and NY.

Payment processors must not be arbiters of what is lawful.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#550

Post by kazinator » Tue, May 30, 2023, 6:14 AM UTC

colinsane wrote: post #329

onionisafruit wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would go further and remove the "lawful" from that. If you pay me $50 it shouldn't matter to the payment processor whether I gave you a painting or a blow job in return.

if the payment processor knew the transaction was for a contract killing but processed it anyway, would they not be facilitating a crime (“aiding and abetting”)? are you saying we should specifically exempt payment processors from being held responsible for crimes that the rest of us — or any other business — could be found guilty of when performing the same functions? or are you suggesting something more broad: that…

Maybe the payment processor simply shouldn't know that.