GDP is the wrong tool for measuring what matters (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: GDP is the wrong tool for measuring what matters (2020)

#11

Post by frankfrankfrank » Mon, May 29, 2023, 9:41 PM UTC

andrei_says_ wrote: post #7

The Gross National Happiness index of Bhutan has been in place for 15 years. Maybe there’s something we can borrow from there. Gross National Happiness (GNH), sometimes called Gross Domestic Happiness (GDH), is a philosophy that guides the government of Bhutan. It includes an index which is used to measure the collective happiness and well-being of a population. Gross National Happiness Index is instituted as the goa…

It is an interesting phenomenon that people tend to just swallow, hook, line, sinker, rod and reel some obscure measure and metric or ranking as if it’s some kind of law of physics.

Re: GDP is the wrong tool for measuring what matters (2020)

#12

Post by HyperSane » Mon, May 29, 2023, 9:44 PM UTC

GDP adjusted by Gini coefficient would be a better measure. A massive GDP overly concentrated in the top 1% of the population doesn't improve the lives of the rest of the population.

Re: GDP is the wrong tool for measuring what matters (2020)

#13

Post by pyuser583 » Mon, May 29, 2023, 9:48 PM UTC

I live near a military base that serves as a sorting facility for refugees.

This is mildly beneficial to our GDP. It’s also beneficial to the refugees. Win-win.

But whenever refugees show up, aggregate happiness certainly suffers.

Re: GDP is the wrong tool for measuring what matters (2020)

#14

Post by i-use-nixos-btw » Mon, May 29, 2023, 10:45 PM UTC

frankfrankfrank wrote: post #10

bwanab wrote: post #6

The trouble with that logic is that there's a huge correlation between happiness ( https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/happiest-... ) and GDP per capita.

This is a good example of correlation not being causation. GDP is really just a measure of activity within a framework to measure it. It has nothing constructive to say about the real value of the activity, just that it is happening as measured in a currency. Besides, the inventor of GDP warned against using it as a measure for policy making, but as with many things in human affairs, oversimplified things that give a…

There is no good measure for policy making. Goodhart and all that.

But it does serve as an often-indirect measure, as part of a plethora of other measures, to simply explore the effects of policy.

I’m not aware of policy that focuses on improving GDP per se (not saying there isn’t any, Im just not that tuned into politics) but I am aware of people criticising their government when GDP has dropped after a major change. That’s the appropriate use, though.

Re: GDP is the wrong tool for measuring what matters (2020)

#15

Post by xbpx » Mon, May 29, 2023, 10:53 PM UTC

naet wrote: post #5

supportengineer wrote: post #2

What matters is spending time with your loved ones. And it is measured in hours or days.

A healthy economy is needed for people to be able to spend time with loved ones. People who have to work double shifts or can't make ends meet end up missing out on a lot of family time.

GDP doesn't measure a healthy economy however. It measures aggregate production which can be owned by a small minority of extremely wealthy asset holders while everyone else needs to work double shifts. I'd want a measure of inequality in whatever function is used to measure happiness.

Re: GDP is the wrong tool for measuring what matters (2020)

#16

Post by boeingUH60 » Mon, May 29, 2023, 11:17 PM UTC

andrei_says_ wrote: post #7

The Gross National Happiness index of Bhutan has been in place for 15 years. Maybe there’s something we can borrow from there. Gross National Happiness (GNH), sometimes called Gross Domestic Happiness (GDH), is a philosophy that guides the government of Bhutan. It includes an index which is used to measure the collective happiness and well-being of a population. Gross National Happiness Index is instituted as the goa…

Frankly, Bhutan is a backwater with a GDP per capita of around $3,000. I don’t think it’s a country people should be imitating despite all their marketing around happiness.

Sure, the citizens might be happy, but people can be happy even in dire circumstances.

Re: GDP is the wrong tool for measuring what matters (2020)

#17

Post by jpdenford » Mon, May 29, 2023, 11:50 PM UTC

boeingUH60 wrote: post #16

andrei_says_ wrote: post #7

The Gross National Happiness index of Bhutan has been in place for 15 years. Maybe there’s something we can borrow from there. Gross National Happiness (GNH), sometimes called Gross Domestic Happiness (GDH), is a philosophy that guides the government of Bhutan. It includes an index which is used to measure the collective happiness and well-being of a population. Gross National Happiness Index is instituted as the goa…

Frankly, Bhutan is a backwater with a GDP per capita of around $3,000. I don’t think it’s a country people should be imitating despite all their marketing around happiness. Sure, the citizens might be happy, but people can be happy even in dire circumstances.

Bhutan’s implementation of GDH aside. What matters more than happiness? Surely any other metric is just an (often misguided) approximation.

Re: GDP is the wrong tool for measuring what matters (2020)

#18

Post by refurb » Tue, May 30, 2023, 12:26 AM UTC

jpdenford wrote: post #17

boeingUH60 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, Bhutan is a backwater with a GDP per capita of around $3,000. I don’t think it’s a country people should be imitating despite all their marketing around happiness. Sure, the citizens might be happy, but people can be happy even in dire circumstances.

Bhutan’s implementation of GDH aside. What matters more than happiness? Surely any other metric is just an (often misguided) approximation.

I mean, people can be happy out of ignorance, and that ignorance can include things that contribute to high child mortality.

I'm not sure we should be ok with high child mortality, just because people are happy.

Re: GDP is the wrong tool for measuring what matters (2020)

#19

Post by netsharc » Tue, May 30, 2023, 12:29 AM UTC

boeingUH60 wrote: post #16

andrei_says_ wrote: post #7

The Gross National Happiness index of Bhutan has been in place for 15 years. Maybe there’s something we can borrow from there. Gross National Happiness (GNH), sometimes called Gross Domestic Happiness (GDH), is a philosophy that guides the government of Bhutan. It includes an index which is used to measure the collective happiness and well-being of a population. Gross National Happiness Index is instituted as the goa…

Frankly, Bhutan is a backwater with a GDP per capita of around $3,000. I don’t think it’s a country people should be imitating despite all their marketing around happiness. Sure, the citizens might be happy, but people can be happy even in dire circumstances.

> people can be happy even in dire circumstances.

Luckily the population of western countries know better, they do the reverse!

Re: GDP is the wrong tool for measuring what matters (2020)

#20

Post by naet » Tue, May 30, 2023, 12:31 AM UTC

xbpx wrote: post #15

naet wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A healthy economy is needed for people to be able to spend time with loved ones. People who have to work double shifts or can't make ends meet end up missing out on a lot of family time.

GDP doesn't measure a healthy economy however. It measures aggregate production which can be owned by a small minority of extremely wealthy asset holders while everyone else needs to work double shifts. I'd want a measure of inequality in whatever function is used to measure happiness.

Oh absolutely agreed that (US) GDP is a terrible metric that we optimize for. There must be other signals of general economic health that would better serve the greater population.