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Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

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Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#331

Post by danpalmer »

red-iron-pine wrote: post #242
danpalmer wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been using cards nearly exclusively my entire adult life, and I can only think of one time that my card had an issue, and it turned out my whole bank was down for ~1 hour. Inconvenient, but I can think of more times I've forgotten to have enough cash with me, and I barely use cash at all now. In the UK and Australia where I normally am, card infrastructure is just so entirely universal and reliable that it's not…

I'm in Canada and the US, but same story. Still carry $40 on me just in case I need the cash but 99% of my transactions in-person are card.

Yeah when I first moved to London after uni I used to carry ~£20, but about 6 years ago I naturally stopped using or replenishing it and ended up never having cash in my wallet. Now I rarely even have a wallet on me, even when abroad.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#332

Post by elzbardico »

theturtletalks wrote: post #150
onionisafruit wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would go further and remove the "lawful" from that. If you pay me $50 it shouldn't matter to the payment processor whether I gave you a painting or a blow job in return.

It's a clever setup. Using laws like the Anti-Money Laundering rules, the government nudges credit card companies to avoid high-risk businesses. These companies can then turn away any business without explaining why, all in the name of "security through obscurity." But when you think about it, this setup skips past important legal protections like due process and the presumption of innocence. It's like the government…

That's my biggest issue with this state of affairs. I am not a libertarian preaching unrestricted Laissez-Faire. But I do think that having your access to a payment system blocked should only happen as a result of a legal procedure with ample defense rights and based on laws voted by a parliament.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#333

Post by throw_m239339 »

Seattle3503 wrote: post #13

My concerns about a cashless society are the power it hands to a few oligopolistic credit card processors. Look at what happened to Pornhub. Regardless of whether you think Pornhub was in the wrong, it is striking that a business was cut off from global financial system by a small number of credit card companies. This was done without due process and under no countries laws. That should scare us at least a little.

I really couldn't care less about Pornhub and any other digital pimps that made money off revenge porn and CSAM for decades. I'll never feel sorry for them, its executives are rich and without a conscience.

> The small organization that helped bring the porn industry to its knees

https://www.godreports.com/2022/12/the-small-organization-th...

> How Pornhub – one of the world's biggest sites – caused untold damage and pain

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/16/pornhu...

> Pornhub sued for allegedly serving “under-age, non-consensual” videos

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/06/pornhub-hosted-r...

> The Children of Pornhub

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/04/opinion/sunday/pornhub-ra...

A simpler exemple would be independent new commenters, political organizations, or non aligned artists suspended by Crowdfunding platforms, Patreon, Paypal or even VISA directly because the competition or politicians don't want them to exist.

> PayPal shuts accounts of anti-war publications Consortium News and MintPress News

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/05/04/uofx-m04.html

> Visa & Mastercard Reportedly Refuse Service to David Horowitz - Newest Victim of SPLC's Anti-Conservative Purge?

https://www2.cbn.com/news/us/visa-mastercard-reportedly-refu...

> PayPal Partners with Anti-Defamation League to Research Financial Pipelines of ‘Extremist’ Groups

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/paypal-partners-with-ant...

> Why Is PayPal Denying Service to Palestinians?

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/10/why-paypal-denying-ser...

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#334

Post by derf_ »

SoftTalker wrote: post #219
kernoble wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even with cash, you can't buy a plane ticket without handing over all your info. Which is a good thing! And, if I had to guess, the booking of hotel rooms probably has more to do with liability rather than tracking. There are plenty of ways of getting a roof over your head without using a credit card; though IMO they are likely a downgrade. While your statements resonate with me, it's a bit hyperbolic to say that ele…

> Even with cash, you can't buy a plane ticket without handing over all your info. Which is a good thing! Why is that a good thing? You used to be able to walk into the airport, pay cash at the ticket counter for a ticket, and get on the plane. Compared to the fantastic level of nonsense we put up with today?

In the 1974 political thriller The Parallax View, one of the characters boards a plane at LAX, and then purchases a ticket from the stewardess. It is the most jarring scene in the entire film.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#335

Post by kortilla »

tchaffee wrote: post #307
zhfliz wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you know about/suspect it you report it. how do you know with 100% certainty/due process that this is indeed the case and it's not just your ML algorithm going crazy? people can also pay with physical money if they desire to do so.

What I asked is specific: if you know the money is for a hit job will you still accept the business and take your fee or is there a moral line you personally won't cross? Yes, it's the job of the police to investigate but do you want the freedom to not engage in business that you consider evil?

That’s a bit of bullshit because these payment providers accept transactions for the government which consistently kills people at the local, state, and federal level every day.

If you “know” the money is for a hit job, you contact the FBI or local police and they can mobilize protective services and arrest forces.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#336

Post by jasonjayr »

Groxx wrote: post #109
itake wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what is different though is they don't know what you're buying (I think).

Not sure why that would be any different than credit card payments, which don't itemize every purchase either - they still know how much and to what seller, tracking a seller and banning them seems just as easy. What they don't get is the buyer's information. ...except for the time and place, with a device that almost certainly has cameras for theft deterrence. Which might be fine now, but seems pretty law-enforcemen…

CC's do get transaction information.

Check out "Level 3 data"

https://www.tidalcommerce.com/learn/what-is-level-3-data

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#337

Post by momirlan »

mc32 wrote: post #126
Seattle3503 wrote: post #13

My concerns about a cashless society are the power it hands to a few oligopolistic credit card processors. Look at what happened to Pornhub. Regardless of whether you think Pornhub was in the wrong, it is striking that a business was cut off from global financial system by a small number of credit card companies. This was done without due process and under no countries laws. That should scare us at least a little.

Also the threat to civil liberties was exposed in Canada when the government saw it fit to freeze people's bank accounts. I believe this is being reviewed and maybe something will come of it so that the gov is not allowed to cavalierly freeze accounts in the future, but you can see how even liberal people are ready to violate people's civil liberties when they see it fit. It's like principles are only followed when t…

it's Canada, so no review will be beneficial to people. the whole judicial process is a joke. the government has carte blanche to do anything to you

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#338

Post by thebigwinning »

scoofy wrote: post #158
thebigwinning wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might have something to do with an increase in surveillance and criminal record keeping.

It might, sure, but it might also have to do with the fact that people carry almost nothing in cash compared to 40+ years ago. In 1985, when I was a child, my father would care around $300 on him effectively at all times. Credit cards were still new, and checks were a limited option, most places you still needed cash. That's the equivalent of $850 today. I rarely carry more than $200 on my person today (less than the…

I agree. It was more convenient to rob cash which is fungible.

But I actually wonder if the rewards are higher today, with everyone carrying >$1000 phones.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#339

Post by rsaesha »

lazide wrote: post #315
yesbut wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not familiar with Brazil's system, but moving a central bank to being democratically controlled is betterbthan leaving this in the hands of a private company. The US central bank isn't currently democratically controlled, but it could be. Then collectively we could decide how a Brazil type system should function. People are better served when their banks aren't run for-profit.

Until it’s politically uncool to be you, and the gov’t bans your ability to buy food. The Nazi’s got elected in their first time, democratically (ish).

Brother fckn nazis taking the government is a much bigger systemic problem that no financial system can protect against.

The system works if democracy works. If we lose democracy, of course, the blocks built on top of it would crumble. That does not means everyone should stop building on top of democracy. Even more so for things that makes the life of the people better.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#340

Post by danpalmer »

ramblenode wrote: post #197
danpalmer wrote: post #68

Something often not spoken about (as the discussion often focuses on privacy and "power") is the price. As someone who uses card for most payments (maybe paying in cash a couple of times a year), cash is expensive to use. It requires time out of my routine to take the cash out, unless I can take out an exact amount there I'm then left with change, and then because I don't want the change I normally spend it on things…

> On the other hand cards are effectively free to me The average card merchant fee in the US is 1.5-3.5%. You're paying that much more for everything you're buying. That applies even if you use cash. So it's effectively a private sales tax. You absolutely pay for the convenience. It's just not on any receipt.

In the EU/UK it's capped at 0.4% for debit cards I believe, and not much more for credit cards. I agree it is a private sales tax, but cash handling isn't free so it's not a perfect comparison.

In Australia it's actually very common for the card fee to be applied on top of the charge, especially in restaurants and small businesses. And I actually don't mind. It's about 1-1.5%, which on a $50 bill is small enough that I'd rather have the convenience, and the annoyance (or risk) of cash is enough to not bother.

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