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Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

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Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#251

Post by standardUser »

lottin wrote: post #165
spaceman_2020 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The absence of cash should terrify anyone. So ridiculously easy to quash any dissidents if you can cut off their ability to buy anything with a single click of a button. I don't use much cash at all but if my government was planning on ending all cash, I'd go out and buy a bunch of precious metals. Can't trust my basic freedom with Visa and Paypal.

Sorry, this is a lot of nonsense. Any government that has the ability to prevent dissidents from paying for stuff also has the ability to employ much more brutal and effective methods of quashing dissidence.

Not really. Elaborate black markets exist and thrive all over the world. Maybe in the most brutally restrictive regimes they can truly ban something people want. But the rule across most societies is: ban something people want, then an unregulated black market will fill the void, regardless of laws, and will probably bring otherwise avoidable violence.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#252

Post by Georgelemental »

jupp0r wrote: post #237

I understand and agree with the arguments for cash as an option. On the other hand, I think it's completely irrelevant if nobody is using it. I'm in my 30s and literally nobody uses cash among my friends. Is this debate even relevant?

I am younger than you, and I use cash.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#253

Post by realce »

medler wrote: post #134
harimau777 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the government often creates crimes that citizens don't agree with. Or the majority uses the law to try to force their preferences on the minority.

So should everyone simply disregard any laws they disagree with, provided they can get away with it? Where does it end?

It doesn't "end" whatsoever. Your notion of it ending means total governmental control or total anarchy. Life is in the middle of the two, the resting point is a continuous balance of two extremes. It's not simple to disregard laws, it's risky and makes you vulnerable.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#254

Post by arcticbull »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #247
arcticbull wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess what I am saying is that it can be governed by Charter all it wants, but at the end of the day it is, apparently, governed by what ruling party considers a crisis. Minority government, meaning multiple federal parties, in addition to all the provincial premiers. So basically, every elected official - plus the unelected official, the Governor General. It's why we elect them - and have them, respectively. Lit…

I disagree overall, but I appreciate your replies. I agree that I could have made my point better.

Nah you're good, I like talking to people I disagree with. I like it when folks change my mind. And for what it's worth, your argument was compelling.

Sorry if I came across prickly, lol, I was typing faster than thinking.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#255

Post by fbdab103 »

red-iron-pine wrote: post #209
jameshart wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the basis for this advice? Personally I'd be far more interested to learn that someone running for office refuses to use a credit card to buy groceries because they fear having that information collected and used against them... than that they once spent $500 in a single month on Twinkies. If someone wants to use your spending history against you they don't actually need your credit card bills these days, they…

> What's the basis for this advice? "The GoBeRmEnT Is GoNa TrAcK YoU" Listen, you got a cell phone, and chances are that's going to give away far, far more than data that your credit card company holds on to. They're just going to have a line -- "Food Lion, [Date] $88.23" -- not detailed list of your purchases. Meanwhile if you use a membership card at any sort of grocery store, they absolutely will associate it with…

That's why you should always check to see if some kind soul has pre-registered [local area code]-867-5309

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#256

Post by jccalhoun »

user3939382 wrote: post #202

Whether or not you agreed with the trucker protest in Canada, I hope we all agree it’s pretty terrifying that the method the state decided to use to silence protesters was freezing their bank accounts without due process, any trial, anything. Cash is the best weapon against this.

Do you have a link you can give to explain what you are talking about? I"m familiar with the protest but not the other part.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#257

Post by cyanydeez »

Seattle3503 wrote: post #13

My concerns about a cashless society are the power it hands to a few oligopolistic credit card processors. Look at what happened to Pornhub. Regardless of whether you think Pornhub was in the wrong, it is striking that a business was cut off from global financial system by a small number of credit card companies. This was done without due process and under no countries laws. That should scare us at least a little.

Look at what it did to crypto.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#259

Post by EscapeFromNY »

arcticbull wrote: post #231
EscapeFromNY wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back of the napkin math: - 8 billion people - 96% reduction in block space over the naive approach, per the paper. (EDIT: the signature aggregation being referred to is Schnorr signatures, and it's become reality since the paper was published) - 7 transactions per second, 86400 seconds per day, 365 days per year 8000000000*(1-0.96)/7/86400/365 = 1.45 years Current transaction fees are $3. Assuming that stays constant…

Are you assuming the chain does nothing else at the time? And that fees wouldn't explode the second people actually tried to use it, and block space would dry up? Seems like using only the free portion of block space would allow you to arrive at a more realistic conclusion. Blocks seem to be going out pretty full thanks to ordinals.

I expect lightning adoption (to the extent it happens) to take place over decades, not just 1.45 years, so there's plenty of buffer already.

In the past, fees have at times been both lower than today and higher than today. That will be true in the future too. Satoshi Dice didn't ruin bitcoin in 2013, and neither will ordinals in 2023.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#260

Post by cyanydeez »

theturtletalks wrote: post #150
onionisafruit wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would go further and remove the "lawful" from that. If you pay me $50 it shouldn't matter to the payment processor whether I gave you a painting or a blow job in return.

It's a clever setup. Using laws like the Anti-Money Laundering rules, the government nudges credit card companies to avoid high-risk businesses. These companies can then turn away any business without explaining why, all in the name of "security through obscurity." But when you think about it, this setup skips past important legal protections like due process and the presumption of innocence. It's like the government…

On the other end you have crypto.

Unfettered electronic currency has not shined a light on honest arbiters

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