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Health officials delayed report linking fluoride to brain harm

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Re: Health officials delayed report linking fluoride to brain harm

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, fluoride must not be added to any food or beverage, because it provides no benefits whatsoever when ingested. Fluoride is beneficial only when applied externally on the dental enamel, so that the fluoride ions will passively substitute the hydroxide ions. There is no known biological process that uses actively fluoride in the human body and excessive ingested fluoride has bad effects, e.g. bone damage. Therefore…

adrian_b vs. health scientists throughout the world and history, ca. 1:1e10 Who to believe here, who should we believe here, hm, very difficult problem, adrian_b's passionate statements or practically all the professionals of the world. I go and contemplate over this for a while now. : )

If you judge the truth of the information you receive based on the claimed authority of those who provide it, instead of using your own mind to discern whether that information is logically consistent or inconsistent, that is sad and I believe that this should be a cause of concern for you.

Consider the following facts, which can be easily be verified in countless sources, e.g. in books written by real chemists or "health scientists":

The mineral component of the teeth and bones grown by a human body is made of hydroxylapatite.

When a hydroxylapatite crystal is immersed in a water solution of fluoride ions, in the superficial layer of the crystal, which is in contact with the fluoride solution, some of the hydroxide anions from the crystal are dissolved in the water and they are substituted by fluoride anions, thus converting the superficial layer of the hydroxylapatite into fluorapatite.

The fluoride ions bond more strongly to apatite than the hydroxide ions, so once formed the fluorapatite layer is more resistant to dissolution than the parent hydroxylapatite.

In the conversion of hydroxylapatite into fluorapatite, like in any other chemical reaction, the converted amount increases with the concentration of the reactant, i.e. of fluoride and with the time of contact between hydroxylapatite and solution.

All of the above explain how the contact between the tooth enamel and a fluoride solution creates a superficial tooth layer that is more resistant to dissolution, which decreases the likelihood of tooth cavities.

The dependences of the conversion efficacy on fluoride concentration and on contact time explain why tooth brushing or mouth washing are far more effective in enamel hardening than drinking fluoridated water, when the fluoride concentration is low and the contact time is very short and most of the fluoride never enters in contact with the tooth enamel to have a chance to harden it.

After the fluoride is ingested, it never comes again in contact with the tooth enamel, so there is no way for it to harden the enamel.

Please tell us how your "1E10 health scientists throughout the world and history" have told you that ingested fluoride from inside your body can harden the tooth enamel from outside your body.

Perhaps the fluoride ions use The Force to harden the enamel from a distance?

The fluoride ions are carried by blood in most parts of the body, but the tooth enamel does not contain blood vessels. Even if it had blood vessels, they would have been buried in it and they would not have reached the external surface of the teeth, which is where the fluoride is needed for protection against dissolution.

Moreover, the fluoride ions spread uniformly in the entire blood volume. Only a small part of the ions pass close to the teeth, most of them pass through the bigger organs, including through the bigger bones, which, unlike the tooth enamel, contain numerous blood vessels.

Because the fluoride ions have high affinity for apatite, many of those passing through the bones stop there and remain incorporated in the mineral part of the bones.

While at the surface of the teeth fluoride is desirable, in bones it is harmful because it makes the bones more fragile, increasing the likelihood of fractures.

In conclusion, when drinking fluoridated water, only very little fluoride is retained in the tooth enamel, but most ends in the bones, so this method is much more effective in making the bones fragile than in hardening the tooth enamel.

There are only 3 ways in which the ingested fluoride could protect against tooth cavities: eating one's own excrement, washing the mouth with one's own urine or biting one's own body and drinking one's own blood or washing the mouth with it.

Whoever does not have such habits will not receive dental health benefits from ingested fluoride.

I look forward to see how "all the professionals of the world" can explain the magical ingested fluoride effect claimed to exist by the proponents of drinking water fluoridation.

Re: Health officials delayed report linking fluoride to brain harm

#402
post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A sugar tax would have the same effect, it's a single change that's very easy to implement. 10,000% should do.

Cheap sugar substitutes will be used. Long term health effects are not clear.

What you want is a calorie tax. Possibly a liquid calorie tax.

Or just every calorie?

Re: Health officials delayed report linking fluoride to brain harm

#403
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This study looked solely at impact on dental health. Other studies tell us it is associated with stomach cancer and infertility.

Is dental health not beneficial?

Assuming you are not being disingenuous: there is a trade off with a lot of uncertainty - other things are also implicated in stomach cancer, and at the same time untreated dental disease causes other health problems too.

But I prefer to rely on brushing my own teeth and avoiding certain foods to maintain my own health, rather than have a medication added to my water supply because the guy next door does not take care of his health.

Re: Health officials delayed report linking fluoride to brain harm

#404
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case it’s more “when all you have is a hammer (fluoride)…”

The therapy appears to be improving her teeth. Is there something I am missing?

Just because a treatment works doesn't mean it's the best treatment, or is treating the "cause." To say that a lack of fluoride is the cause of their bad teeth is silly. Not eating sugar/acidic foods, Novamin, or a different set of bacteria in her mouth would also improve her teeth.

Re: Health officials delayed report linking fluoride to brain harm

#405
post #390
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you target them, and what would make it more efficient?

We do it by noticing who needs help on the free dental checkups during the first years of life usually. If they have some sort of handicap, they can get help physically brushing or support to do it themselves every day. Helps a lot more than adding something that might work a little in everyones water.

On what basis have you evaluated that it "helps a lot more"? What if your method doesn't lead to more people actively brushing their teeth, thus reducing the amount of people with properly protected teeth (since they are also missing fluoride now), increasing amount of dental healthcare required?

Re: Health officials delayed report linking fluoride to brain harm

#406
post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outsife the US, fluoride is added to tooth paste. Sounds like a better idea to me.

Outside the US, it's added to water too

Africa: 400,000 people out of 1.1 billion get fluorides in there water.

Asia: close to none in China (didn't find any hard numbers), none in India, less than 1% in Japan. Only Malaysia is doing it at any resonable scale.

Europe: 2% of the population get it, roughly 14 million people with 10.5 million of those being in the UK and Ireland.

So that leaves North America, with the exception of Mexico which jas high natural fluoride levels and fluorides salt, Australia and Latin America.

Going by these numbers, the majority of people get fluoride through different means from drinking water. Afroca of cpurse has a lot of other issues regarding drinking water, starting with the exostince of clean drinking water itself.

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation_by_countr...

So techinicalls you are correct, overall much less so.

Re: Health officials delayed report linking fluoride to brain harm

#407
post #24

As a biochemist, this seems to be a very complex issue that has been unnecessarily politicized. What happened with this report is interesting in and of itself, but I would not draw any conclusions (or make any inferences) from this, frankly.

As someone who comes from an area with clean fresh water, that does not contain added fluoride, this is not a complex issue. It's simply not a question that comes up. People have good dental hygiene here. To my mind, yes sure you can over complicate the entire debate, but all of that is irrelevant in the face of these basic points: - Is there a chance that fluoride ingestion could be detrimental to human health? - Ca…

In theory, obesity can be solved with diet. In practice, it is a complex issue.

Re: Health officials delayed report linking fluoride to brain harm

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

adrian_b vs. health scientists throughout the world and history, ca. 1:1e10 Who to believe here, who should we believe here, hm, very difficult problem, adrian_b's passionate statements or practically all the professionals of the world. I go and contemplate over this for a while now. : )

If you judge the truth of the information you receive based on the claimed authority of those who provide it, instead of using your own mind to discern whether that information is logically consistent or inconsistent, that is sad and I believe that this should be a cause of concern for you. Consider the following facts, which can be easily be verified in countless sources, e.g. in books written by real chemists or "h…

I am so very sorry stepping on something so sensitive.

Re: Health officials delayed report linking fluoride to brain harm

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the obvious answer is, we can’t actually tell one way or the other if it is a net benefit. However, humans can’t handle uncertainty so must be told in confident tones that the decision is the correct one. If anyone questions the established decision, they must be discredited.

It's worse than that. We may know perfectly well which way is better on the net. But since masses can't handle uncertainty, you can't just say "doing this is more beneficial on the net" - you have to project certainty, or else people will interpret your lack of confidence as indicative of scheming, and do the opposite.

What related problem domains are understood “perfectly well”?

I think until we can accurately simulate the human body, there is essentially no hope for these areas. Unless it is possible to run highly controlled multi-generational studies with large numbers of people, statistical significance cannot be attained. Various meta analysis are funded and completed, but these do not count as strict definition science requires actual experiments to be independently replicated.

Re: Health officials delayed report linking fluoride to brain harm

#410
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A Reverse Osmosis (RO) system can remove 85-92%* of fluoride in your water. https://www.paragonwater.com/does-reverse-osmosis-remove-flu...

RO water is demineralized and the pH is impacted. It is not a healthy drinking water outside of occasional use. It is also not appetizing and thus it's easy to become dehydrated. After years of RO water I switched to spring water due to health issues and I will never look back. Of course, it is insanely expensive to drink 3L of spring water and so frustrating to not have unpoisoned water from the tap.

Huh, I drank RO water for most of my liquid intake growing up and loved the taste. I like it a lot more than tap water.
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