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India ruling party's IT cell used AI to show smile on arrested protesters' faces

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Re: India ruling party's IT cell used AI to show smile on arrested protesters' faces

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From HN "Guidelines" page: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, or celebrities, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic. As much as you're entirely right that HN's readership decides what succeeds or not, pretty…

> Maybe it is relevant I think it absolutely is relevant, given that the conversation itself was about changing narratives, as a meta point. > you almost make it sound like Web3 has a second chance or something. This thread itself, is one of the rare ones where bringing up web3 actually is relevant, yes. It is reasonable for him to make that argument, because the topic is literally about how to authenticate things wh…

> as a meta point.

I mean, it's a stretch. I could use that stretching metaphor as an excuse to talk about taffy for 4 paragraphs, but it doesn't contribute anything meaningful to the conversation. Scrounging up discussion about Web3 on an Indian government exposé is off-topic, and readers will flag it. It's equally substantial as those "this is good for Bitcoin" posts that get flagged under every article about a government treasury.

> the topic is literally about how to authenticate things when you have an opposing central authority.

If so, his flagged post didn't reflect it. It was a vapid comment that made no attempt to reconcile either topic.

> his point was about how unpopular opinions are being proved correct

If you want to argue that the Blockchain could have prevented this from happening, then by all means - write that comment. But that's not what his flagged post was. It detracted from the conversation and quite literally read as flamebait.

> if you were downvoting/disagreeing with opinions about how AI is going to make it hard to authenticate information online, then you were wrong

Spoilers: it has been hard to authenticate information online for as long as the internet has been around. In fact, the most significant events are corroborated with real life occurrences that challenge these lies. These women can attest that they did not do this in the photo. If government officials insist that the version with them smiling is the true master copy, then you're the fool for believing them.

I'm baffled that this is even being used as a platform to discuss Web3, a collection of technologies mostly reputed for... being manipulated and exploited by bad actors that cannot be incentivized to stop.

Re: India ruling party's IT cell used AI to show smile on arrested protesters' faces

#302
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is what a lot of us think the real threat of "AI" is: not that it will autonomously produce bad outcomes for humanity, but because it's a tool that's indifferent to truth or falsehood it allows any kind of truth or reality based politics to be totally flooded out of the public sphere. Everyone ends up fighting in the hall of mirrors.

Yeah. The postmodernists (as I understand them) have been talking about "post truth" and "claims of truth are just assertions of power". And I've always thought that their position was insane. Now they look more like prophets. That world is increasingly the world we live in. The question becomes, how can we stay sane in that world? How can we find enough actual truth (truth that is actually true , true in the old sen…

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Re: India ruling party's IT cell used AI to show smile on arrested protesters' faces

#303
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

How will this protect (the first "workaround" that popped into my head) against modifying/AI generating an image, printing it on high-quality printer and taking a photo of that image in good (or maybe bad?) lighting?

Photos have authenticated timestamps.

Older photo is the real one.

Re: India ruling party's IT cell used AI to show smile on arrested protesters' faces

#304

I am amazed that the title is allowed to stand despite the original title and the content. The origin of the image is unclear. Sure, one can speculate that "India ruling party's IT cell" is behind the morphed image. This is what this comment section is for. But without hard proof the title is as much of an propaganda as are the morphed image. Are we going to tag everything a Democrat does as "US ruling party's" doing…

Exactly. Only recently we had this fiasco (less than a year ago):

https://www.theverge.com/2022/10/23/23419366/the-wire-meta-i...

HN was fooled multiple times during that episode. It looks like HN likes being gullible when simple common sense would have prevented that.

https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=thewire.in

Re: India ruling party's IT cell used AI to show smile on arrested protesters' faces

#305
post #22

As an NRI, I continue to be disappointed by the country I called home for most of my life. Between the politics and the pollution in Delhi, I fear I can never really return home. The last time I was home, I was struggling every day to breathe because Delhi has crazy air in the winter. While high school friends were telling me about how they don’t believe in equal rights, justifying any means to achieving a Hindu coun…

We are looking at a ruling government who uses AI to demean olympic winning athlete to protect a serial molester. Somehow even after all this heinous acts I can see bunch of so called educated techies defending that ruling class. Is the hate for "other" religion so strong?

Re: India ruling party's IT cell used AI to show smile on arrested protesters' faces

#306
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is easy to shit on the party in office which is BJP right now but show me a country that can have hundreds of languages, all religions and still survive for centuries as one country. Europe couldn't do it. They broke into EU (for better or worse). I have no idea what you’re referring to here. Europe has never been one country, and will likely never be. Having smaller countries isn’t something bad, nobody would c…

The Balkans, Africa & the sub-continent are proven examples of the kind of blood that's shed during partition, secession and civil wars. If you're a proponent of the balkanization of India, then you're by default a proponent of of the biggest as-of-yet-unrealized genocide of the 21st century.

Who talked about the balkanisation of India? The OP is pointing out an inaccurate fact — Europe did not break up on religion.

We could all use a little drama to support our points here.

Re: India ruling party's IT cell used AI to show smile on arrested protesters' faces

#307
post #200
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is AI related to this? Did LLMs figure how crack encryptions?

That doesn't seem too unbelievable. Maybe a sufficiently large LLM will be able to find a flaw in the algorithms or logic behind some encryption schemes which even our greatest monkey brains overlooked.

No, they cannot. LLMs are LANGUAGE models, not KNOWLDEGE models. They do not "know" what algorithms mean any more than they know what everything else they "talk about" mean.

What they are more than capable of is to produce really convincing hype, which claims that LLMs can do anything and everything.

Re: India ruling party's IT cell used AI to show smile on arrested protesters' faces

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sad thing is they will probably win again in 2024. The damage that 15 years of BJP has done to the social fabric of India, and the undermining of the core founding principles of the republic will last for generations. It's hard to imagine it going away :(

Most Indians were never secular. Before, they hadn’t got a voice or representation. BJP came into power by tapping into the latent sentiment in majority of Indians. It's much like how Trump was elected. If you think that majority of Indians were ever secular, I think that you never left the bubble of upper middle class, city based society. Hindus are, generally much more advanced than Muslim in terms of education, fi…

I'm not Indian, but I heard that there is also a rift between south Indians (Tamil) and the northerners. Are Tamils Hindu as well? Where do they play into this?

Re: India ruling party's IT cell used AI to show smile on arrested protesters' faces

#309
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is what a lot of us think the real threat of "AI" is: not that it will autonomously produce bad outcomes for humanity, but because it's a tool that's indifferent to truth or falsehood it allows any kind of truth or reality based politics to be totally flooded out of the public sphere. Everyone ends up fighting in the hall of mirrors.

Yeah. The postmodernists (as I understand them) have been talking about "post truth" and "claims of truth are just assertions of power". And I've always thought that their position was insane. Now they look more like prophets. That world is increasingly the world we live in. The question becomes, how can we stay sane in that world? How can we find enough actual truth (truth that is actually true , true in the old sen…

So I mean, postmodernism is a pretty "diverse" field, and while there are some who would claim to be full relativists, they aren't usually taken very seriously.

What someone like Herbert Marcuse would claim is that there is something like a "definite negation," or Jacques Derrida would call a "trace;" that is, there, sitting behind every signifier (of de Saussure's structural linguistics) its negation of another signifier that defines its position in an ordered chain or a symbolic network. They would not argue that things are relative; rather, social life is regulated by these vast signifying networks that one becomes "subjectivated" in (begins to understand oneself as a subject), where one's "agency" also stands at the limits of this intelligibility: as they say, everything you "decide" is already pre-conscious; every notion of what is "possible," is limited by what is already "intelligible," i.e. what operates in the social-symbolic function as it, like an algorithm, constantly moves and exchanges its various symbolic orderings in what we call the "economy." To be a true agent means to do something which radically restructures this network and radically redefines all its terms: Foucault's "fearless speech," Badiou's "Event." The latter thinker actually explicitly rejects relativism (and is in some ways a platonist--actually many so-called "postmodern" thinkers, Whitehead among them, are considered platonists.)

The position you claim is from "post-modernism":

>"claims of truth are just assertions of power"

finds its origins in Nietzsche, who famously claimed that truth, morality, beauty, etc. were invented by the weak because they feared the powerful and they were jealous of the fact that they couldn't kill their enemies, eat fully, and have sex all the time (Master Morality, which was just doing whatever you wanted). So they rose up, took over, and invented these categories and systems of valuation in order to justify a new regime of power where nobody was able to do what they wanted, and everything was regulated by vast systems of control justified by these metaphysical notions (he refers to this as "Christian Morality.") He claims that Christian morality, after centuries of struggle, has finally won out in the Bourgeois revolutions of the 18th and 19th centuries, but now "God" has been subordinated to "Science" while retaining all the metaphysical baggage of christianity "truth, beauty, morality," etc. This is from Nietzsche's Genealogy of Morals, the argument from which was expanded in Foucault's Discipline and Punishment (the most widely read book from what most people would call "postmodernism").

>truth that is actually true, true in the old sense of corresponding to the reality of what is

The so-called "correspondence theory of truth" is considered a fallacy of the layman in academic philosophy. Truth has always been, in logic, a category: a value, specifically a boolean value. One can make claims about the structure and order of logic and the relation of that to psychological, social-processes (as Frege, Husserl, and many other "anti-psychologists" of the 19th and 20th centuries did); but to claim that language, a signifying act, somehow directly corresponds to the physical objects that it categorizes, can't really be valid: as Shakespeare said "a rose, by any other name, would smell as sweet." There is no reason why the words we use have any correspondence to experience--even if there is surely some reason why words can evoke experiences, emotions, like when one hears the name of a past-lover. But that can be attributed to what the "postmodernists" claim: the name evokes an entire symbolic structure and brings it to the surface of consciousness.

Re: India ruling party's IT cell used AI to show smile on arrested protesters' faces

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Secularism in modern India is a synonym for Hinduphobia ... 1. Secularism is a constitutional principle enshrined in fundamental rights in the Indian constitution. The fundamental *Right to Equality* in the Indian constitution already implies this. Although, the word *secular* was added explicitly to the constitution through the 42nd Amendment (in 1976), it has been implictly read in through various Supreme Court r…

> Secularism is a constitutional principle

The constitution can say whatever it wants. The only thing that matters is what actually happens on the ground. Successive governments have adopted Hinduphobic positions and laws while claiming to be secular. Why are only Hindu temples under the control of various state governments? Why don't governments take similar control of cathedrals, churches and mosques?

There is example after example proving my position. All you have is some words in a document that are belied by the actions of those meant to observe it.

> Right to Equality

Religious minorities can run their own schools where they can teach their children their way of life? Can Hindus do this qua Hindus? Again, words in a document that contradict other words in the same document.

> Hindu Marriage Act (a personal law) was amended to outlaw polygamy

Why were Muslims not given the same benefits or punished in the same manner (whichever way you want to look at it)? How can you be secular and equal if two men or two women are treated differently before the law for the exact same action? This is a joke masquerading as justice.

> Of course, the fascists will equate all proselytizing with forcible conversions.

You can believe that Christianity is so superior to local religious practices that an entire state almost completely adopted the religion voluntarily in 3-4 generations. Given the history of Christian missionaries in India, South America and other parts of the world and the tactics they adopted, this is a simplistic argument/position.

There is literature available from Missionaries, in their own words, as to their opinions about Indian religious traditions and the people practicing them. Arun Shourie has written a couple of books on the subject.[1][2]

An individual here or there converting to a different faith is one thing. When religions conversions are used to shift demography, this has national security implications. Separatist movements grew in Kashmir and Nagaland. The partition of India was done on Muslim vs. non-Muslim lines where Muslim-majority provinces became Pakistan. Onlygodists will always be in conflict with Manygodists because their worldviews are fundamentally different.

Organized conversions must be banned. If the constitution has to be amended to do it, so be it.

[1] Missionaries in India: Continuities, Changes, Dilemmas

[2] Harvesting Our Souls: Missionaries, Their Design, Their Claims

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