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India ruling party's IT cell used AI to show smile on arrested protesters' faces

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Re: India ruling party's IT cell used AI to show smile on arrested protesters' faces

#211

How do we know that the non-smiling images are not the fakes? part of an operation to foment discontent with the ruling party by making a false accusation of dystopian manipulation of photographic evidence? No, I don't think it likely. It's just we live in a world where this kind of stuff is just so easy to do now.

The article includes a video showing they were able to use FaceApp on the non-smiling photo to reproduce the smiling photo exactly.

They also include analysis comparing the smiling photo to other existing photos of those people smiling and note that in the smiling photo some people are depicted with dimples that the person doesn't actually have.

Re: India ruling party's IT cell used AI to show smile on arrested protesters' faces

#212
post #22

As an NRI, I continue to be disappointed by the country I called home for most of my life. Between the politics and the pollution in Delhi, I fear I can never really return home. The last time I was home, I was struggling every day to breathe because Delhi has crazy air in the winter. While high school friends were telling me about how they don’t believe in equal rights, justifying any means to achieving a Hindu coun…

For non Indians, NRI = Non Resident Indian i.e. an Indian who lives outside India. In case someone wondered. It is easy to shit on the party in office which is BJP right now but show me a country that can have hundreds of languages, all religions and still survive for centuries as one country. Europe couldn't do it. They broke into EU (for better or worse). There are flaws but India is a complex country of various cu…

> Europe couldn't do it

When was Europe one country?

Re: India ruling party's IT cell used AI to show smile on arrested protesters' faces

#213
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to provide authentic image with your image for it to validate, just as you have to supply any intermediate certificates in TLS. If you want to crop to hide information you have to do this while taking the photo in the camera app. Powerful entity can tell you to install their root certificate just like it happens in China. This is a different problem.

If browsers require authenticated images as suggested, then CSS will probably grow the ability to apply a masking layer to crop, filter, transform the image. Advertisers are going to want to postprocess images and have the green check.

Well I don’t think all images would have to be signed, just photos for which you want to prove authenticity. Probably social media and dating apps seem like a good target. Maybe some advertising, sure. I bet McDonalds wouldn’t mind green checkmark since they go through all that effort to fake food in real life.

You could of course fake green checkmark in CSS but this is already an issue with faking other browser UI elements, including address bar–it’s a known problem.

One way to solve this is having a browser picker, that is a button you click in trusted area of browser UI that lets you inspect any image on the page. Similar thing is possible with smartphone UI, you go to app overview/carousel and long press on an image in app, this launches photo inspection portal.

Re: India ruling party's IT cell used AI to show smile on arrested protesters' faces

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you capture it, but to make it clear, post-modernism existed before the Internet. I’ve never considered the post-truth perspective as having anything to do with intentional misrepresentation, but rather relativism (which is dangerous in other ways, imho). Outright lying has been used by authoritarians, but it really seems like we need a term to describe societies controlled by blatant, obvious lies (which is…

I have a suggestion for the word to describe the current situation in the US: Agitprop. It's not just blatant, obvious lies. It's lies *designed to agitate people". I mean, the goal is "media engagement" (and secondarily, "political engagement"), but that comes downstream from getting everybody stirred up.

There are 330 million people in the US, and 1.4 billion in India. You don't need lies for agitprop - such numbers will furnish you with enough real incidents to drive whatever narrative you wish, if you're in a position to pick what gets publicity. Cherrypicking. I'm sure you can think of a few recent examples.

Re: India ruling party's IT cell used AI to show smile on arrested protesters' faces

#215
post #85
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im glad you mentioned this because I thought I was going a bit nuts. It's like thinking beyond today is impossible and that using logic to predict behavior is akin to being a conspiracy theorist. Some now popular conclusions around AI were flagged comments ~3 months ago. No wonder software is so terrible today.

It's like that in general, with authority-based and cargo-cult based thinking. Look at how the "Wuhan lab leak theory" was flagged and buried, how it took Jon Stewart to voice it and take a lot of heat before anyone paid any attention, and now it's mainstream and the Federal government is supposedly officially investigating it. https://nypost.com/2023/02/28/jon-stewart-recalls-outrage-af... Sometimes governments use…

From HN "Guidelines" page: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

> Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, or celebrities, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.

As much as you're entirely right that HN's readership decides what succeeds or not, pretty much every example you've furnished is defined clearly as "off topic" submissions. The Wuhan lab leak theory, regardless of how we view it in hindsight, was paraded as a sensational event up and down party lines. It never had a chance on this site, like Donald Trump drama or "Ask HN: What did you think of Kardashians last night?". Maybe it is relevant - but framing it sensationally is like toxic waste to this site's readers.

> the orthodoxy was that you shall not talk about everyday causes of depression or ADD

> So now we have a lot of taboos to talk about overdiagnosis of ADHD and gender dysphoria, talking about the DSM V criteria

They're not taboo. They're just not appropriate conversation topics for a hacking/finance website. The few times that it has become a big discussion topic has been through the lens of engineering lifestyles and personal experience. Even that is arguably too sappy for a non-Reddit website.

> Now it's OK to talk about it

> So yes.. right now the thing is to hate on Web3

Very subtle foreshadowing - you almost make it sound like Web3 has a second chance or something.

Truth is, like I said at the beginning - HN chooses what they want to hear. Most websites that give their users any degree of control over their experience let this happen (see Twitter, where users block the verified users). If you demand engagement on a topic nobody cares about, it stands to reason that you'll feel repeatedly disappointed by this website.

Re: India ruling party's IT cell used AI to show smile on arrested protesters' faces

#216
post #50
post #6

That is getting real freaking dystopian. Sure, we would have been able to do this before, and the Soviet Union did a ton of photo editing. But doing this particular edit must have been so easy. No cost at all, no mental barrier. You would almost think 'why bother'. And before anyone says 'yeah, but the truth came out'. Well, we saw it, but how many of the particular audience of whatever that outlet was will never see…

I think the primary issue is that, while internet users usually question the authenticity of photos (as a normal practice), they tend to subconsciously trust what they see in videos. It will require a significant mental shift to now question practically every single piece of audiovisual content.

I used to think this problem would solve itself, in that once people were fooled a few times, they'd stop being so easy to fool. The Trump era shut down that quaint idealistic notion. Turns out a lot of people -- maybe all of us to some extent -- actively enjoy being fooled. It makes for a communal experience that we'd otherwise miss out on, or something.

Re: India ruling party's IT cell used AI to show smile on arrested protesters' faces

#217
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That world is increasingly the world we live in I think the point of the postmodernists was that was always the world we live in, it's just that the Internet has made it much more visible and we can see the fraying and the contradictions. It's just that, for a fairly narrow window of time and societies, there was enough of an honor culture about being caught lying that the discourse-reality matched fairly well the…

I think you capture it, but to make it clear, post-modernism existed before the Internet. I’ve never considered the post-truth perspective as having anything to do with intentional misrepresentation, but rather relativism (which is dangerous in other ways, imho). Outright lying has been used by authoritarians, but it really seems like we need a term to describe societies controlled by blatant, obvious lies (which is…

I wrote up a much longer reply to this, but I can't get myself to submit it. tl;dr is there are some basic things you cannot say in public today without getting cancelled. And I'm not talking about kiddy porn or extreme Trumpisms.

Edit: Literally took 5 minutes for the first downvote, despite not mentioning a single "issue". What's that old phrase? QED?

Re: India ruling party's IT cell used AI to show smile on arrested protesters' faces

#218

I’m wondering if someone can comment on the cultural aspect here. It seems like adding the smiles was intended to discredit the protesters, by somehow suggesting the protest was insincere. But I feel like you could interpret this the other way too: even in the face of brutal treatment, they maintain a positive and peaceful attitude and don’t let their opponents break their spirits. “Turn the other cheek” and “love yo…

It's just "they're laughing at you". This is actually interesting to me: possibly the thing that is most annoying to most people, though not all, in most societies is to be suckered. Maybe the next highest is hypocrisy.

I wonder if these are universal or if different societies have different "greatest sin". Like, does Japan, unbeknownst to me, have shamelessness as its?

Re: India ruling party's IT cell used AI to show smile on arrested protesters' faces

#219
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The sheer amount of hubris in your post is astounding. So any opinion other than your own is propaganda fed by the west, but the only true reality is the one you agree with that paints India in a flattering light. Using “the world happiness index” as some kind of gotcha propaganda is hilarious, when we’re discussing actual issues like arresting protestors. Just ridiculous. I won’t be replying again to you because I d…

Not OP (and not a fan of his whataboutism plus you don't deserve to be downvoted) but I think the issue is that India is so large and diverse that commentators can be right and wrong at the exact same time when painting a brush with the term "India".

When social and political norms can vary within individual states, let alone the entire country, it causes people to feel reporting about very negative or very positive news is propaganda one way or the other.

A lot of this is then further inflamed by IT Cells from parties across the board, especially because most NRIs are getting news about India via the internet plus social media.

Add to that the fact that most Western media isn't biased (I've worked with them), but might write articles using a broad brush that pisses other NRIs off and then we all devolve into regionalist or casteist bickering.

Eg. When the Unnao tragedy happened (which was horrible), it was reported in some western media that it was in India and broad brushed as an Indian issue. A number of Tamil and Malayali friends too offense to that and began saying "oh, it's actually Uttar Pradesh. Bhaiyyas are always like that" and regionalist shit like that, which obviously pissed off the UP+Bihari wale in my office.

On the side, you can see propagandists like Agnihotri inflaming Hindu-Muslim tensions by bringing up the Kerala Story as if every single Malayali Muslim is a future Jihadi and inflaming Hindi-Southern tensions by making a number of idiots assume Malayalis are a 5th column, which is an extremely horrible broad brushed assertation

And finally, a lot of people say that BJP voters are illiterate and illiteracy is pushing back India. As someone with family from small town India who has known illiterate people, they are smart as you and I. Just because they didn't get the opportunity to learn to read+write doesn't mean they can't think rationally and logically. So for NRIs from lower middle and working class (as a lot of NRIs increasingly are now), it feels very classist and insulting.

Basically, what I'm getting at is that we use our prior experiences and background to understand a country, but when you are dealing with a country as large and diverse as India it automatically falls apart.

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