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Creating a sperm or egg from any cell?

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Re: Creating a sperm or egg from any cell?

#61

Post by throw0101b »

samtho wrote: post #50
sjducb wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sex is not separate from reproduction. If you are a man and have sex with a woman then you're consenting to be a father. Most western countries recognize verbal and other non-written contracts. The clearest example I can see here is the UK's law about weather the genetic father is the legal father. If the child was conceived through sexual intercourse then the genetic father is always the legal father.

Sex has been separated from reproduction, at least in the few species we know of that partake in it for pleasure only. Humans engage in a variety of sexual activities that ostensibly cannot result in a pregnancy. You talk about verbal contracts, how is that different from misrepresenting yourself if you said you were on the pill or you had a vasectomy? The verbal contract of consent can be delivered or revoked during…

> Sex has been separated from reproduction, at least in the few species we know of that partake in it for pleasure only.

That's like saying that eating has been separated from sustenance (or nutrition) because people (just happen to) eat Twinkies for pleasure.

People doing something for reasons that just happen to not to be the primary purpose does remove the purpose of an action.

Re: Creating a sperm or egg from any cell?

#62

Post by batch12 »

A lot of discussion around theft or blackmail so I'll go another way. People could more easily stud themselves out. Imagine if 15% of the babies of 2036 were related to the sexiest social media model. Talk about designer babies. You'd begin to be able to tell when someone was born and how rich their family is by who they (do or don't) resemble. People could sling their own genes on online marketplaces where consumers pick a genetic partner (or two) like one would build a Mario kart.

Edit- And then there'd be the fraud. People buying knockoff celebrity DNA..

Re: Creating a sperm or egg from any cell?

#63

Post by XorNot »

sjducb wrote: post #47
solatic wrote: post #14

> "One law we definitely need is to make sure people can't become genetic parents without their knowledge or consent," says Greely. Exactly when and how is consent given? Going down this ethical train of thought, one could argue that sexual intercourse only implies consent for sexual intercourse, not consent for reproduction. If the requirement for consent implies a requirement for a written contract, then consent fo…

Sex is not separate from reproduction. If you are a man and have sex with a woman then you're consenting to be a father. Most western countries recognize verbal and other non-written contracts. The clearest example I can see here is the UK's law about weather the genetic father is the legal father. If the child was conceived through sexual intercourse then the genetic father is always the legal father.

This is confusing the practical realities of today with ideal law. The burden of carrying or terminating a pregnancy, bodily and fiscally rests solely on the woman in any scenario.

The law can't meaningfully distinguish, or even collect solid evidence, of "consent for reproduction" nor can it handle third party equipment failure (or reasonably prove it was not due to misuse either way).

If a man has sex with a woman and she gets pregnant, every bodily consequence falls on her, and some magic "I didn't consent to reproduce" law would have the practical effect of legally compelling a woman's decisions about her body to her own detriment.

All of which is a long winded way of saying: having sex is not consenting to be a father, but it is consenting to having to deal with the possible consequences. Invent a world where men can disable sperm production entirely, and you'd be able to write very different laws.

Re: Creating a sperm or egg from any cell?

#64

Post by lelanthran »

sjducb wrote: post #47
solatic wrote: post #14

> "One law we definitely need is to make sure people can't become genetic parents without their knowledge or consent," says Greely. Exactly when and how is consent given? Going down this ethical train of thought, one could argue that sexual intercourse only implies consent for sexual intercourse, not consent for reproduction. If the requirement for consent implies a requirement for a written contract, then consent fo…

Sex is not separate from reproduction. If you are a man and have sex with a woman then you're consenting to be a father. Most western countries recognize verbal and other non-written contracts. The clearest example I can see here is the UK's law about weather the genetic father is the legal father. If the child was conceived through sexual intercourse then the genetic father is always the legal father.

> If you are a man and have sex with a woman then you're consenting to be a father.

That sounds primitive and regressive. "If you're a women who has sex, you're consenting to be a mother".

Re: Creating a sperm or egg from any cell?

#65

Post by samtho »

throw0101b wrote: post #61
samtho wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sex has been separated from reproduction, at least in the few species we know of that partake in it for pleasure only. Humans engage in a variety of sexual activities that ostensibly cannot result in a pregnancy. You talk about verbal contracts, how is that different from misrepresenting yourself if you said you were on the pill or you had a vasectomy? The verbal contract of consent can be delivered or revoked during…

> Sex has been separated from reproduction, at least in the few species we know of that partake in it for pleasure only. That's like saying that eating has been separated from sustenance (or nutrition) because people (just happen to) eat Twinkies for pleasure. People doing something for reasons that just happen to not to be the primary purpose does remove the purpose of an action.

I would argue that sex is different because, looking at the animal kingdom, the result is rarely a benefit to the individual. It’s resource intensive and in some cases (with insects specifically) the ushering in of a new generation results in the death of the parent. Reproduction is absolutely essential to the survival of the species but often a bad deal for the organisms involved. It’s a bodily function that many resources are dedicated to but is the least essential for for the survival of the individual.

Part of what enables pleasure-sex in humans is the fact that penetration does not trigger ovulation and that happens on its own schedule so evolution selected for mating strategies that would lead to frequent and short encounters. Additionally, the way we began to walk upright had the effect of moving human female genitalia more to the front which enabled her to be more selective about her partners. With the parental instinct being shared among both males and females combined with the fact both parties also are able to derive a great deal of pleasure from the experience, both sexes end up being more closely aligned with the goals of a sexual encounter vs those of our most recent, more ape-like ancestors.

To bring it back around, I understand what you are trying to say here, but disagree with your conclusion. Evolution selected modern humans to engage in sexual encounters that will not always result in a pregnancy, unlike eating which your body will always attempt to process the same as the last thing you are.

Re: Creating a sperm or egg from any cell?

#66

Post by laratied »

solatic wrote: post #14

> "One law we definitely need is to make sure people can't become genetic parents without their knowledge or consent," says Greely. Exactly when and how is consent given? Going down this ethical train of thought, one could argue that sexual intercourse only implies consent for sexual intercourse, not consent for reproduction. If the requirement for consent implies a requirement for a written contract, then consent fo…

[flagged]

Re: Creating a sperm or egg from any cell?

#67

Post by Pigalowda »

A few years ago i wrote up some questions related to this. Cool it’s on NPR now

Question:

Can an adult somatic cell be de-differentiated into an induced pluripotent stem cell and then re-differentiated into a working/healthy germ cell. Can this germ cell undergo meiosis and produce spermatocytes and oocytes?

Can one of these induced gametes fertilize another induced gamete and produce viable offspring.

Can this system be applied to humans?

Can a somatic Cell from an XX female be de-differentiated and induced to become a functional sperm by re-differentiation (and placement into reconstituted testis)

If sperm can be induced from the somatic cells of an XX female, can these sperm be used to fertilize an oocyte? (Whether it is an induced oocyte from a somatic cell or naturally occurring oocyte)

Objective: If possible, I want an induced sperm from an XX female somatic cell to fertilize a natural oocyte (or induced) and produce viable offspring capable of reproduction. The purpose is not to create a clone, such as seen in nuclear transfer, but to have a female derived sperm cell fertilize a female derived oocyte

Re: Creating a sperm or egg from any cell?

#68

Post by jeroenhd »

sjducb wrote: post #47
solatic wrote: post #14

> "One law we definitely need is to make sure people can't become genetic parents without their knowledge or consent," says Greely. Exactly when and how is consent given? Going down this ethical train of thought, one could argue that sexual intercourse only implies consent for sexual intercourse, not consent for reproduction. If the requirement for consent implies a requirement for a written contract, then consent fo…

Sex is not separate from reproduction. If you are a man and have sex with a woman then you're consenting to be a father. Most western countries recognize verbal and other non-written contracts. The clearest example I can see here is the UK's law about weather the genetic father is the legal father. If the child was conceived through sexual intercourse then the genetic father is always the legal father.

The same argument is often used against abortion (of children not conceived by rape). After all, who are you to decide to end a life you've willingly conceived?

There are even rare cases where women went digging through the trash of famous people they've had sex with to impregnate themselves. There are also plenty of stories of women sabotaging birth control to "baby trap" a man.

With our current laws, in many places, the male is forced to pay child support in this case (a failed attempt made the news recently: https://www.jacarandafm.com/news/entertainment/model-wants-s..., with more details here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_theft) or have other responsibilities not because of birth control being unreliable, but because of the malicious intent of others.

"If the baby is yours it's your problem" is too simplistic and causes legal issues in cases like these.

Re: Creating a sperm or egg from any cell?

#69

Post by jeroenhd »

troad wrote: post #35
runsWphotons wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This technology goes way beyond that. I don't see why we should dismiss the many valid ethics questions because it is something that some gay people want. That may be a slight positive to weigh against all the other questions.

I fully agree that we ought not dismiss valid ethics questions. These should by all means be discussed, and - as with any reproductive tech - they will be, before anything like this ever rolls out. I don't think "but yeah what if you steal rich people cells and make a baby and then totally blackmail them" is quite the ethical quandary some people seem to think it is, however. It's clear to whom this is a purely navel…

Women have tried to impregnate themselves with disposed condoms before. Some people are just crazy like that.

It's rare that this happens, but the law should have a provision for this case before this technology can be used without repercussions. Not only because of the question of "who's the father" but also because of laws forcing biological parents to pay child support, for example, regardless of how the child came to be.

Re: Creating a sperm or egg from any cell?

#70

Post by jeroenhd »

gnicholas wrote: post #4

> People could even potentially steal the DNA of celebrities from, for example, a clipping of their hair to make babies, he says. "One law we definitely need is to make sure people can't become genetic parents without their knowledge or consent," says Greely. A new type of blackmail: (1) get some trace DNA from a rich person, (2) use it to create a baby, and (3) threaten to harm that baby if the rich person does not…

Why harm the baby? In many places a claim of a one night stand and evidence of biological fatherhood are enough for a life long of child support payments.

Threatening to release the documentation for the child support case to the media can be a good blackmail opportunity.

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