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Why I Left Rust

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Re: Why I Left Rust

#141

Post by brokenkebaby »

wokwokwok wrote: post #111
indy wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much less weight should be given to someone "feeling uncomfortable" Rust the language is pretty good but the community around it has become really off-putting. The thick veneer of empathy and compassion quickly devolves into "idiot compassion" and emotional blackmail. Even the linked post contains the following: "I left because when I felt JeanHeyd's pain and disappointment at being mistreated and betrayed, my heart…

Is it bad of me to say I really just don’t care? If he did the talk. If he did it as a keynote. If someone else is “leaving rust” because of it? It all seems so fabulously irrelevant, I really struggle to understand why: 1) I should care (I don’t, currently) 2) People are coming out of the woodwork to criticise the rust team / foundation whatever when they’re not involved. 3) Why people having emotions (eg. The perso…

>Why people having emotions (eg. The person above, who does care) is somehow a bad thing?

It's a bit of manipulation as nobody stated that having emotions is bad. Meanwhile, people leveraging unverifiable claims of bad feelings to hurt somebody is apparently ok... unless that somebody is you, of course.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#142

Post by mgaunard »

All of the "social" aspects of programming are full of drama.

There isn't a conference where I don't hear about a LGBTQ person not being offended by so and so.

Then you have the politics of who gets to set out the true vision or be a chair at this or that committee.

If you're serious about programming, you just stay away from both of these. Being a language expert is pretty irrelevant anyway, it's just some ego-boosting in case you can't be successful at your business domain.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#143

Post by oytis »

As someone who doesn't follow very closely, the amount of drama around Rust seems to be something unseen among open source projects before.

Is it that BDFL-based governance just works better, or do people have higher expectations from Rust community than from, say, Linux one?

Re: Why I Left Rust

#144

Post by cookieperson »

meindnoch wrote: post #69

Rust could be a nice language if it wasn't for its insufferable "community".

The rust community is great, but definitely avoid the power structures. Thats the same for any niche programming language by the way. That said rust does seem to have a lot of public drama, the whole team or something quit last year, I don't remember. Just remember OSS is a game of trying to get people to do a lot of work for zero compensation beyond social recognition or the fun of doing things... There's going to be a lot of slimy stuff around the organizations behind that.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#145

Post by amelius »

junon wrote: post #77

Wait. Let me get this straight. Someone is an expert in this field. They're asked to speak at RustConf after a leadership vote. They've also written an article about reflection in Rust - a purely technical thing that is already pretty widely disliked conceptually. (EDIT: the talk was about this, but it's also compile time reflection and came with the usual disclaimer that it was not representative of any of the Rust…

Looks like the Rust community could use some reflection ;)

Re: Why I Left Rust

#146

Post by Hendrikto »

bjornsing wrote: post #120
indy wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much less weight should be given to someone "feeling uncomfortable" Rust the language is pretty good but the community around it has become really off-putting. The thick veneer of empathy and compassion quickly devolves into "idiot compassion" and emotional blackmail. Even the linked post contains the following: "I left because when I felt JeanHeyd's pain and disappointment at being mistreated and betrayed, my heart…

> "I left because when I felt JeanHeyd's pain and disappointment at being mistreated and betrayed, my heart broke. I wept because of the cruelty. But I also wept because I helped create the system that could do this to someone." I’m a bit hesitant to say this out loud, but… you can only cry over this “betrayal”, “mistreatment” and “cruelty” if you have lived a very protected life.

What are you saying? ”Suck it up.“?

Re: Why I Left Rust

#147

Post by worrycue »

wokwokwok wrote: post #111
indy wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much less weight should be given to someone "feeling uncomfortable" Rust the language is pretty good but the community around it has become really off-putting. The thick veneer of empathy and compassion quickly devolves into "idiot compassion" and emotional blackmail. Even the linked post contains the following: "I left because when I felt JeanHeyd's pain and disappointment at being mistreated and betrayed, my heart…

Is it bad of me to say I really just don’t care? If he did the talk. If he did it as a keynote. If someone else is “leaving rust” because of it? It all seems so fabulously irrelevant, I really struggle to understand why: 1) I should care (I don’t, currently) 2) People are coming out of the woodwork to criticise the rust team / foundation whatever when they’re not involved. 3) Why people having emotions (eg. The perso…

> I really struggle to understand why: 1) I should care (I don’t, currently)

It’s unprofessional I guess. For the sake of Rust’s future, it should probably get better stewardship. If you agree to let someone speak then you should honour it.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#148

Post by cookieperson »

Oddskar wrote: post #136

How petty are you as a person if you disregard your peers and screw someone over just because you're "uncomfortable" with a technical article? Can we just stop with this intolerance of differing opinions? It's OK to disagree with someone. We don't need to all share the same opinions. Why the fuck would you have a conference if not to inject some healthy discourse in your community?

Also you are allowed to call that out AT THE CONFERENCE. In my field conference talks always have a Q and A. Sometimes people get completely shredded (in a tactful professional way) during a Q and A. If it's something you disagree with ask questions. This is someone willing to put their reputation on the line to say something, they've been vetted, voted on, made arrangements, etc. If they are wrong well that's what peer review is for, and working as a team is for.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#149

Post by lyu07282 »

indy wrote: post #88
junon wrote: post #77

Wait. Let me get this straight. Someone is an expert in this field. They're asked to speak at RustConf after a leadership vote. They've also written an article about reflection in Rust - a purely technical thing that is already pretty widely disliked conceptually. (EDIT: the talk was about this, but it's also compile time reflection and came with the usual disclaimer that it was not representative of any of the Rust…

Much less weight should be given to someone "feeling uncomfortable" Rust the language is pretty good but the community around it has become really off-putting. The thick veneer of empathy and compassion quickly devolves into "idiot compassion" and emotional blackmail. Even the linked post contains the following: "I left because when I felt JeanHeyd's pain and disappointment at being mistreated and betrayed, my heart…

I thought "rust culture" came out of this sort of super SJW/woke culture of mozilla? Nothing against that sort of mindset in theory, but it sometimes leads to a certain irrational hypersensitive intolerant mob behavior and authoritarian/anti democratic tendencies.

There was also the recent easily preventable drama [1] around the trademark guidelines some people left rust over. I don't really find any of this drama coming out of this culture very surprising. I write rust every day, I don't have to identify or interact with any sort of community around it, but I care about the future of it. I just hope it's already too big to fail at this point, because there is way more drama coming out of this community in the future, that's for certain.

[1] https://github.com/blyxyas/no-rust-policy-change

Re: Why I Left Rust

#150

Post by ZephyrBlu »

chillbill wrote: post #79

I haven't seen anyone bring this up, so I will. I read through the original blog post from JeanHeyd[1] and in no way do they mention anything related to being a person of color, why then does JT associate it with that? I have no idea about the inner workings of the rust leadership team and who they are even, but from the timeline described and from the original post, there's nothing the could be related to that. Jean…

I'm generally not a fan of the way people go about D&I, but the fact JeanHeyd has brought up the problem before makes it more pertinent.

Whoever on the Rust team made the decision to reach out and downgrade JeanHeyd's talk seems extremely incompetent.

Optics matter a lot here and a large portion of leadership roles is optics. It's careless to not take context into account, like the recent history of poor Rust-related optics (E.g. trademark thing) and JeanHeyd (The person they invited) talking about lack of black representation.

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