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The town is no longer friendly for business

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Re: The town is no longer friendly for business

#71

Post by nirvana »

J3L2404 wrote: post #25
wavephorm wrote: post #4

The United States is very quickly becoming an ever more scary looking country. From the outside, it appears to be converting itself into a full-on fascist regime, hostile to insiders and outsiders alike. The walls are going up, the spy-cams and wiretapping are springing up. The SOPA/PIPA powered nation-wide firewall is being constructed. Local authorities are increasingly becoming subservient to a centralized federal…

> full-on fascist regime. This why you can't judge the world by watching TV. It is really sad to see normally intelligent people go batshit crazy and start spewing nonsense. Europeans should know better than to throw around the word fascist. I am so sick of whining Europeans that I would almost support stalling the U.S. economy just to drive the E.U. into a ditch.

"This why you can't judge the world by reading pamphlets. It is really sad to see normally intelligent people go batshit crazy and start spewing nonsense. White Rose should know better than to throw around the word "evil." I am so sick of whining White Rose that I would almost support stalling the German economy just to drive the White Rose into a ditch."

Re: The town is no longer friendly for business

#72

Post by trustfundbaby »

powertower wrote: post #17

I live in the US. I don't know a single person that's in prison. I don't know a single person that's been charged as a terrorist. I don't know a single person whose business has been adversely affected by the government (such as the above). Seriously! But they keep telling me that it's happening all around me. They tell me it's a fascist police state.

Just to confirm. Are you're saying that, if you don't see it ... it's not really happening?

Re: The town is no longer friendly for business

#73

Post by ido »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #46

There are some general trends that are worth noting. The right seems to generally want to support a new military-industrial complex focused more on immigration and monitoring the population and less on building aircraft carriers. The left seems fine with this, although they'd never openly admit it, aside from a bunch of pundits complaining, as long as they keep and energize their voter base with their issues. The lef…

    So if I were a foreigner looking do do a startup, 
    I'd probably be in the states
And how would you get there, assuming you didn't marry an American (H1-B is for employees, not startup founders, in case that was your answer)?

Re: The town is no longer friendly for business

#74

Post by J3L2404 »

nirvana wrote: post #71
J3L2404 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> full-on fascist regime. This why you can't judge the world by watching TV. It is really sad to see normally intelligent people go batshit crazy and start spewing nonsense. Europeans should know better than to throw around the word fascist. I am so sick of whining Europeans that I would almost support stalling the U.S. economy just to drive the E.U. into a ditch.

"This why you can't judge the world by reading pamphlets. It is really sad to see normally intelligent people go batshit crazy and start spewing nonsense. White Rose should know better than to throw around the word "evil." I am so sick of whining White Rose that I would almost support stalling the German economy just to drive the White Rose into a ditch."

Do you really believe the US is fascist?

Re: The town is no longer friendly for business

#75

Post by rfrey »

nirvana wrote: post #68
rfrey wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When euphemism detracts from the meaning or content of a message, its use is harmful. Your use of the phrase "fascist", regardless of its accuracy (which I debate, but this isn't about semantics), did not add to the content of your message. In fact it detracted significantly, substituting a tired "U.S.->Nazi" cliché in place of whatever message you intended.

"substituting a tired "U.S.->Nazi" cliché in place of whatever message you intended." He didn't make that claim. He made a specific claim. Rather than debate that claim, you're attacking the word he used. Have you got a better word? As far as I know, the term "Fascist" is the most clinically correct term for that type of system. If someone were to use the less correct, but more emotionally charged term "Nazi", then y…

My argument is that use of the word "fascist" itself prevents us from rational discourse of the trends and problems at hand by driving us to extreme positions.

"Fascist" is not the correct word for what's happening. It's a loaded and extreme word. Sure, you can quote an one-sentence online dictionary and use the vagueness of that definition to convince yourself that it is correct. Or you can use an equally simplistic definition like "privately owned but under absolute control of the gov't" and again, claim accuracy. No scholar of political science would ever use a one-line definition for something as culturally and politically significt as fascism.

Even Wikipedia, hardly a controversial source, wouldn't: "Fascism is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology.[1][2] Fascists seek rejuvenation of their nation based on commitment to an organic national community where its individuals are united together as one people in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture, and blood through a totalitarian single-party state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through discipline, indoctrination, physical education, and eugenics."

The discussion is about an important issue: the increasing control of the US gov't and regulatory agencies over the free agency of US citizens. Jumping in and saying "fascist regime" is not furthering rational conversation.

Also, calling somebody on injecting the emotional baggage of that hyperbole is not making "rational conversation impossible".

In another paragraph I was asked if use of euphemism by media was a big part of the problem at hand. I'd say no, it's the opposite: use of extreme polarizing language is a big part of the problem at hand.

Re: The town is no longer friendly for business

#76

Post by nahname »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #46

There are some general trends that are worth noting. The right seems to generally want to support a new military-industrial complex focused more on immigration and monitoring the population and less on building aircraft carriers. The left seems fine with this, although they'd never openly admit it, aside from a bunch of pundits complaining, as long as they keep and energize their voter base with their issues. The lef…

Can I ask why you use "right" and "left", instead of democrats and republicans?

Re: The town is no longer friendly for business

#77

Post by davidw »

wavephorm wrote: post #23
davidw wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we discuss the deteriorating situation in the US like adults and not sputter out epithets like "fascist regime"? Have a look at what's happening in Syria to see what a real dictatorship is like.

fas·cism/ˈfaSHizəm/ Noun: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. (in general use) Extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice. re·gime/riˈZHēm/ Noun: A government, esp. an authoritarian one. A system or planned way of doing things, esp. one imposed from above. I don't think you can get a more succinct description of what's happening to the Un…

If you think the US is like Italy in the 1930ies, you're completely ignorant of the history of this country. Italy, I mean. I live here, and my wife's grandparents lived through that.

That's not to say that things are wonderful in the US, but it's just not the same thing, and to make that kind of claim puts you in the same intellectual bucket in my mind as the folks who call Obama a communist.

Re: The town is no longer friendly for business

#78

Post by neilk »

powertower wrote: post #17

I live in the US. I don't know a single person that's in prison. I don't know a single person that's been charged as a terrorist. I don't know a single person whose business has been adversely affected by the government (such as the above). Seriously! But they keep telling me that it's happening all around me. They tell me it's a fascist police state.

I understand your skepticism.

But, understand that, even if the USA was a fascist state, you wouldn't notice a thing. Check out this excerpt from They Thought They Were Free. This should be required reading for every citizen of a democracy.

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html

That said, I think we impoverish our understanding when we label everything we don't like as fascist. There's a vast array of horrible ways to run a country. In the 20th century alone we've had all sorts of variations, from Hitler to Honecker to Pol Pot. If you ask me, Americans aren't headed towards fascism, but something more like a banana republic.

Re: The town is no longer friendly for business

#79

Post by mindcrime »

wyclif wrote: post #19
JonnieCache wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I particularly enjoyed the all-male congressional panel on the morality of contraception they had the other day. One woman tried to testify but was deemed "unqualified." Well played. Also, who else is looking forward to the war with Iran? I hear it's going to be in HD this time.

Well, the only Presidential candidate in the US who isn't down with the Patriot Act and its provisions, and doesn't believe the US should be engaged in worldwide wars (aka "police actions"), is routinely dismissed as "crazy" by both major parties. Tells you a lot about the USA.

Well, the only Presidential candidate in the US who isn't down with the Patriot Act and its provisions, and doesn't believe the US should be engaged in worldwide wars (aka "police actions"), is routinely dismissed as "crazy" by both major parties. Tells you a lot about the USA.

While I agree with your general sentiment, I want to add that Ron Paul is not the only such candidate for President in the US. If one expands their worldview to include "3rd Party" candidates, there are a few guys pursuing, for example, the Libertarian Party nomination, who hold views very similar to Ron Paul. Gary Johnson and Thomas Hill come to mind.

Of course it's easy to convince oneself that "3rd party" candidates don't matter and to exclude them from the conversation, but that just feeds into a self-fulfilling prophecy, IMO.

Re: The town is no longer friendly for business

#80

Post by mindcrime »

davidw wrote: post #22
wavephorm wrote: post #4

The United States is very quickly becoming an ever more scary looking country. From the outside, it appears to be converting itself into a full-on fascist regime, hostile to insiders and outsiders alike. The walls are going up, the spy-cams and wiretapping are springing up. The SOPA/PIPA powered nation-wide firewall is being constructed. Local authorities are increasingly becoming subservient to a centralized federal…

Can we discuss the deteriorating situation in the US like adults and not sputter out epithets like "fascist regime"? Have a look at what's happening in Syria to see what a real dictatorship is like.

Can we discuss the deteriorating situation in the US like adults and not sputter out epithets like "fascist regime"?

Discussing US politics "as adults" means being willing to accept and confront difficult truths... such as the fact that our system is drifting precariously close to what can be best described as "fascist." Placing our hands over our eyes, sticking our fingers in our ears, and pretending that we don't see and hear what is actually happening is to abdicate our responsibility to behave as adults.

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