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Reflections on Ten Years Past the Snowden Revelations

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Re: Reflections on Ten Years Past the Snowden Revelations

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's important to remember that they invaded Ukraine for no reason, That's extremely reductive. The situation is a bit more complex than that. I don't think they were right to invade -- not remotely -- I think it's abhorrent. But there is a little more historical context with the US and other regional tensions than Putin rolling a 1D6 and deciding that meant "hey, I'm bored, let's invade".

The best excuse they could come up with is essentially, "Chill out. I only robbed your house because you threatened to join the neighborhood watch!" So, yeah, they're the bad guys, and no, there is no way to spin it.

The first thing that dies in war is the truth.

Amnesty International, the UN and Human Rights Watch documented very well how Ukrainian extremists and paramilitary organizations tortured and put people randomly into detentions after the allegedly USA friendly government was installed in the Ukraine in 2014. Here are some money quotes which I found interesting:

September 2014:

“Members of the Aidar territorial defence battalion, operating in the north Luhansk region, have been involved in widespread abuses, including abductions, unlawful detention, ill-treatment, theft, extortion, and possible executions. The Aidar battalion is one of over thirty so-called volunteer battalions to have emerged in the wake of the conflict, which have been loosely integrated into Ukrainian security structures as they seek to retake separatist held areas. In the course of a two-week research mission to the region, an Amnesty International researcher interviewed dozens of victims and witnesses of the abuses, as well as local officials, army commanders and police officers in the area and representatives of the Aidar battalion.

Our findings indicate that, while formally operating under the command of the Ukrainian security forces combined headquarters in the region members of the Aidar battalion act with virtually no oversight or control, and local police are either unwilling or unable to address the abuses.”

https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/8000/eur500402014...

May 2015:

“On the pro-Kyiv side, Amnesty International has particular concerns about Right Sector, a volunteer militia created by a pro-Kyiv nationalist political grouping .2 Former Right Sector prisoners detailed a horrifying spectrum of abuses, including mock executions, hostage­taking, extortion, extremely violent beatings, death threats and the denial of urgently-needed medical care. Using an abandoned Pioneer camp near the village of Velykomyhailivka, near Dnipropetrovsk, as an ad hoc prison, Right Sector has reportedly held dozens of civilian prisoners as hostages, extorting large amounts of money from them and their families”

https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/EUR501...

August 2016:

“On 24 June 2016, a number of IDPs, together with a ‘self-defence’ group in Odesa, seized a communal building after numerous attempts at obtaining support from the regional authority to solve their housing problems.143 OHCHR notes a worrying tendency to resolve pressing socio-economic and political issues with the help of voluntary battalions and paramilitary groups.”

https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/Ukraine15thRepo...

July 2016:

“In most of the nine cases Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch investigated, pro-government forces, including members of so-called volunteer battalions, initially detained the individuals and then handed them over to the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU), who eventually moved them into the regular criminal justice system. Some were later exchanged for persons held by separatists and others released without trial.

In three cases detailed in this report the SBU allegedly continued the enforced disappearances, keeping the individuals in unacknowledged detention for periods ranging from six weeks to 15 months. One individual was exchanged, the other two simply released without trial. With regard to two of the individuals, there is no record whatsoever of their detention.

The June 2016 UN report noted that the cases of incommunicado detention and torture brought to their attention in late 2015 and early 2016 “mostly implicate SBU” and specifically mentioned the SBU compound in Kharkiv as an alleged place of unofficial detention.

Based on the research findings detailed in this report, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch believe unlawful, unacknowledged detentions have taken place in SBU premises in Kharkiv, Kramatorsk, Izyum, and Mariupol. We received compelling testimony from a range of sources, including recently released detainees, that as of June 2016 as many as 16 people remain in secret detention at the SBU premises in Kharkiv. Ukrainian authorities have denied operating any other detention facilities than their only official temporary detention center in Kyiv and denied having any information regarding the alleged abuses by SBU documented in this report.

Most interviewees told Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch they were tortured before their transfer to SBU’s facilities. Several also alleged that after being transferred to SBU premises they were, variously, beaten, subjected to electric shocks, and threatened with rape, execution, and retaliation against family members, in order to induce them to confess to involvement with separatism-related criminal activities or to provide information.“

https://www.hrw.org/report/2016/07/21/you-dont-exist/arbitra...

“Members of extreme right-wing groups also conducted forceful and discriminatory actions against the Roma community. On 18 April, members of C14 extreme right-wing group forcibly confined Roma people at the main train station in Kyiv, checking IDs and searching personal belongings.128 Also, following threats to forcefully evict Roma residents, members of C14 burned down a Roma camp in Kyiv on 21 April. The police were present, but did not prevent the attack from happening”

https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/ReportUkraineFe...

June 2018:

“Since the beginning of 2018, members of radical groups such as C14, Right Sector, Traditsii i Poryadok (Traditions and Order), Karpatska Sich and others have carried out at least two dozen violent attacks, threats, or instances of intimidation in Kyiv, Vinnitsa, Uzhgorod, Lviv, Chernivtsi, Ivano-Frankivsk, and other Ukrainian cities. Law enforcement authorities have rarely opened investigations. In the cases in which they did, there is no indication that authorities took effective investigative measures to identify the attackers, even in cases in which the assailants publicly claimed responsibility on social media.”

https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/06/14/ukraine-investigate-puni...

Re: Reflections on Ten Years Past the Snowden Revelations

#212

Years ago, when I interviewed at places that did USG-related work, the stuff I heard about that I didn't have to sign an NDA to hear , scared me enough that I knew Snowden-scale stuff was entirely within the capabilities of the US Govt. I didn't realize they would use it against us just blatantly in direct violation of every law put in place to prevent it, though. I think the lesson I learned from the Snowden leaks i…

Sadly, this seems to be the case. Which means we the people, have lost control of our government.

Re: Reflections on Ten Years Past the Snowden Revelations

#213

Years ago, when I interviewed at places that did USG-related work, the stuff I heard about that I didn't have to sign an NDA to hear , scared me enough that I knew Snowden-scale stuff was entirely within the capabilities of the US Govt. I didn't realize they would use it against us just blatantly in direct violation of every law put in place to prevent it, though. I think the lesson I learned from the Snowden leaks i…

Sadly, this seems to be the case. Which means we the people, have lost control of our government.

I wonder if historically governments were ever controlled by the people. It seems democracies that can somewhat control the government are extreme outliers in human history.

Re: Reflections on Ten Years Past the Snowden Revelations

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he was a Russian asset from the beginning I didn’t say he was a Russian asset from the beginning. I just said he was probably a traitor from the beginning. That may be quite complicated but he ended up a Russian asset.

What’s the reasoning then? As far as I can tell he thought he was doing the right thing at the time, even if you might think he was naive or misguided. Surely the support for his actions indicates to you there are people out there who would have done what he did if they were in his position no? I guess, to me being a traitor has connotations of deliberate intent to do harm due to some kind of external loyalty. While…

> As far as I can tell he thought he was doing the right thing at the time

That’s what he said, that’s not necessarily what was actually true. I no longer believe him given his subsequent actions.

> Surely the support for his actions indicates to you there are people out there who would have done what he did

If you’re suggesting that there could have been genuine patriotic whistleblowers, I agree. But Snowden’s actions have proven he’s not genuinely patriotic but a supporter of a genocidal regime.

> to me being a traitor has connotations of deliberate intent to do harm due to some kind of external loyalty

That’s not what the word means. Betrayal of country can occur for any number of reasons, for instance ego or greed are often involved.

Re: Reflections on Ten Years Past the Snowden Revelations

#215

I think people would be surprised and sickened to know just how cooperative the big tech companies are with the intelligence agencies. Microsoft is especially cooperative, even as going so far to make sure their systems are compatible with surveillance systems. Yes, Telcos have had to this as well, but I don’t think many people know that Microsoft has proactively done this.

We have a crisis of morality in tech and society at large. When the ends justify the means, and the ends are in fact unending pursuits of power, then no amount of deception, deceit, collusion is off the table. And yes, people who work at FAANG et al are complicit.

Looks like people at FAANG did not like this comment.:-)

Re: Reflections on Ten Years Past the Snowden Revelations

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the exact narrative that I’m talking about. It’s a hand wavy pseudo intellectual narrative that goes, Russia commits war crimes and kills civilians, China is Nazi Germany 2.0 and is trying to exterminate Muslims like the Nazis tried to do with the Jews and America is bad, you know with even more casualties in the Middle East but it’s not as bad as these cartoonishly evil regimes. I mean no offence to you by c…

Politicians leverage anti-China rhetoric to get votes while mainstream media use it to get an audience. Just write "China bad" and automatically get 2x more views and clicks. When was the last time you read something positive or even neutral on China in the mainstream media? I can't remember the last time. Probably before Trump. 1.4 billion people and not a single positive thing happens in China, according to Western…

[flagged]

Re: Reflections on Ten Years Past the Snowden Revelations

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Microsoft is especially cooperative, even as going so far to make sure their systems are compatible with surveillance systems. What is a good example?

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/11/microsoft-nsa-... Kind of an older article, but illustrates the situation pretty nicely. Microsoft has also done development work in recent years to enrich the data with more identifiable information and to make the data easier to process for surveillance.

The article you've linked to doesn't seem to implicate them in particular. Apple, Google and dozens of other then-popular companies were also forced into positions of security compromise as well.

Re: Reflections on Ten Years Past the Snowden Revelations

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly, this seems to be the case. Which means we the people, have lost control of our government.

I wonder if historically governments were ever controlled by the people. It seems democracies that can somewhat control the government are extreme outliers in human history.

Democracy via elected representatives is a lie. "Extreme outliers" may even be too much. Is there even a handful of examples?

Re: Reflections on Ten Years Past the Snowden Revelations

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly, this seems to be the case. Which means we the people, have lost control of our government.

I wonder if historically governments were ever controlled by the people. It seems democracies that can somewhat control the government are extreme outliers in human history.

Like it's said in Russia - government is controlled by the people, and we know who these people are.

Re: Reflections on Ten Years Past the Snowden Revelations

#220
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is false. His passport had been revoked before he got on the plane. He got on the plane to "Ecuador" on a temporary travel document from Ecuador, knowing he was never getting off anywhere but Moscow. https://apnews.com/article/587786e6e63b4dc2b70c471606d7f584

from your own article: "If a senior official in another country or with an airline orders it, a country could overlook the withdrawn passport, the official said."

> a country could overlook the withdrawn passport

It still contradicts the narrative that he was stuck in Russia because his passport was revoked once he got there.

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