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Downtown San Francisco is at a tipping-point

economist.com

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Re: Downtown San Francisco is at a tipping-point

#141

Post by arp242 »

phpisthebest wrote: post #129
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could always do what Finland does: admit that these people will never be productive members of society again and get them into housing with social workers on staff. Yes, it’s a constant drain, but Finland says it actually saves money doing it that way, since the services people use on the street turn out to be even more expensive. The big issue is that the USA doesn’t have a national strategy for dealing with home…

>>The big issue is that the USA doesn’t have a national strategy for dealing with homelessness. This is likely saying "the EU does not have strategy for dealing" remember the USA stands for "United STATES" States here is the key... We are 50 independent states, and most of our problems are because we look to the incompetent and corrupt federal government to solve problems they are not constitutional empowered to solv…

Most states also don't really have a comprehensive strategy for dealing with homelessness.

And social care is not institutionalization. In Finland specifically homeless people are given independent housing. It's a completely different thing. Look it up before you start comparing it with failed Titicut Follies-esque institutions in the US.

Re: Downtown San Francisco is at a tipping-point

#142

Post by drewcoo »

atchoo wrote: post #116
bombcar wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what the total cost of building drug cities in the middle of nowhere and just paying to have the hopelessly drugged far away.

Use the proper term, concentration camps. Y'all need some fences less they make their way back to civilisation. Some guards too. Once you've seen the costs y'all start debating attrition vs. euthanasia for these lost causes. Makes sense right? The losers of American capitalism have proven themselves unworthy to live along side us. No better than vermin. Extermination is the only humane act right? Fascism visibly puls…

> Fascism visibly pulsates under the skin of these dehumanising HN discussions.

Yup, and the technology that permeates everything now is designed and implemented with the same mentality, which I think is even more alarming. We've forced everyone into software Skinner boxes.

Re: Downtown San Francisco is at a tipping-point

#143

Post by oliwarner »

PaulHoule wrote: post #110
mschuster91 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the entire US has zero idea what to do with homeless and mentally ill people, other than "dispersing" them or locking them up. As a result, some (particulary Republican) regions give them one way bus tickets to other (particularly Democrat) regions or deport them outright in sometimes very public stunts - out of sight, out of mind and if it deters others all the better, seems to be the general con…

We've got zero idea how to repair broken brains. People with severe mental illness are hard to live with. When I was growing up there was a homeless man who spent all day at the public library that people called "The Professor" who was said to be unable to live indoors because he'd wake up screaming every night. We took in a friend who I think had schizoaffective disorder in and she threatened my wife with a knife af…

> We've got zero idea how to repair broken brains.

I think this is inaccurate. We have many ideas, medications and therapies.

What most homeless populations lack is regular access. Free clinics barely scratch the surface. Bouncing people between the street, hostels, pop up kitchens and offering no stability just makes everything worse.

Dispersal only helps problem areas. Unless you're taking people off the street and homing them with support elsewhere, you're not helping them.

Re: Downtown San Francisco is at a tipping-point

#144

Post by leereeves »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #133
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

San Francisco's Homeward Bound program is run by the Department of Homelessness and Supportive Housing. Obviously not privately run.

Ok, wow, 183 people in 2022. Consider me corrected. At least they aren’t giving them open bus tickets.

What's wrong with giving them open bus tickets that allow them to decide where they want to go?

Re: Downtown San Francisco is at a tipping-point

#145

Post by phpisthebest »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #138
phpisthebest wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>The big issue is that the USA doesn’t have a national strategy for dealing with homelessness. This is likely saying "the EU does not have strategy for dealing" remember the USA stands for "United STATES" States here is the key... We are 50 independent states, and most of our problems are because we look to the incompetent and corrupt federal government to solve problems they are not constitutional empowered to solv…

Finland is part of the EU and has a national strategy. While migration is easier between member countries, it isn’t unrestricted. You have to live in an EU country for some time before qualifying for welfare there, which means poor people can’t easily shop for the best social welfare. Finland doesn’t put its homeless in institutions, just in semi assisted living situations. Homelessness is definitely a national probl…

>>Finland is part of the EU and has a national strategy. While migration is easier between member countries, it isn’t unrestricted. You have to live in an EU country for some time before qualifying for welfare there, which means poor people can’t easily shop for the best social welfare. Finland doesn’t put its homeless in institutions, just in semi assisted living situations.

you have completely missed the Point, Finland is comparable to the single state of California, in fact Finland by most measurements is smaller both in economics and population than California.

California has a State wide (in this analogy would be a "national" Strategy)

The US is comparable to the entire EU, so it would be a "union wide" strategy not a "national" strategy.

Each State in the US, in this analogy would be a "nation" in the EU.

Critically here as well, most states do not have any kind of time limit on welfare, and I am not sure if it would be legal to do so in the US.

>>Homelessness is definitely a national problem.

Homelessness is a State Problem.

>Expecting the west coast cities to shoulder the nation’s homelessness burden is not just ludicrous, it is ultimately futile.

yet we expect Boarder stated to shoulder the nations burden for unregulated boarder? Any attempts by those states to move that population is viewed negatively, and any attempt to stop that migration is likewise negative.

>>We have a huge data problem which leads to bad solutions given wrong assumptions.

And you believe the federal government will solve this? Really? What examples do you have of them solving any social problem ever.?

Re: Downtown San Francisco is at a tipping-point

#146

Post by carapace »

ajross wrote: post #96
PaulHoule wrote: post #76

As anathema as it may seem to some people I think the real answer has to involve dispersing the homeless population in SF. The SF chronicle did a series on the efforts to house people in shelters and one major problems was that a person who wanted to get clean from opioids is just surrounded by temptation and is just one dose of Fentanyl away from death. Thus these people are more dangerous to each other than they ar…

> I think the real answer has to involve dispersing the homeless population in SF. Does it? As the article points out, the homeless population is actually down since 2019. Homelessness is bad, and a hard problem to solve[1], but it's not The Reason Everything Is Wrong, because if it was (1) everything would have been wrong before, when we agree everything was great and (2) other places would be worse, and we all agre…

I've lived in SF for about half a century. I've also read up on the history of SF.

What you're saying about "Urban homelessness is ... not even a new phenomenon to San Francisco!" is very much true, at least since the Gold Rush. I believe our Emperor Norton III was, technically, by modern standards, homeless, although the city was his palace.

What changed was the influx of more-or-less normal people. San Francisco has served as a kind of "drain" for the crazies of the rest of the nation since 1849 right up until the late 90's and the "Dot Com boom". Then e.g. Twitter was tricked into opening their office in the middle of skid row and techie culture and "the street" got to rub shoulders daily and it was not so great, eh?

I've come to believe that OP has got the right idea: Civic Center and the Tenderloin should be condemned and razed, just like Kowloon. The issue is what to do with the people living there now?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowloon_Walled_City

(BTW there have been cities w/o homelessness but they are rare. "We've always had a homeless population in our cities going back to the invention of the city." this is another meme that needs to die, eh?)

Re: Downtown San Francisco is at a tipping-point

#147

Post by latchkey »

naillo wrote: post #134
kakapo88 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SF Techie here. Lived and worked here, for many years. Every day I literally step over bodies to get to work. Drugs are openly dealt and consumed. Mentally ill people roam the streets, screaming. People openly use the sidewalks as a toilet. Crime is rampant. And if anyone doubts it's that bad, I invite you to come and look for yourself. Almost all of these people come from elsewhere in the country. They aren't "price…

Mandatory treatment for mental illness is incredibly cruel in my opinion

More cruel than living on the streets of SF?

Re: Downtown San Francisco is at a tipping-point

#148

Post by grumple »

ihaveajob wrote: post #54
Mizoguchi wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's ignore that almost 100% of the homeless population in America is addicted to drugs. Having experienced drug abuse myself I know for a fact affordable housing is not going to do anything for these folks. They need treatment, and that unfortunately doesn't happen voluntarily when you are sick.

"According to SAMHSA, 38% of homeless people abused alcohol while 26% abused other drugs." [1] The vast majority of homeless people do not look like what's on display near Civic Center in SF. That's just the tip of the iceberg. [1] https://americanaddictioncenters.org/rehab-guide/homeless

Firstly, that's a lot of addicts. I was also unable to find what study they were citing on mobile, but I am extremely skeptical. In my city (Philly) we have a population of homeless heroin addicts larger than most towns in the US. Those that aren't in that cluster are generally mentally ill. At the very least, the homeless who are not mentally ill or addicts aren't the ones disrupting our lives, and they are not the cause of the problems we're talking about.

This video is from two weeks ago (you can find many more like it): https://youtu.be/ipivYAHEoIM . It doesn't come close to capturing the scale of the neighborhood's blight but gives you an idea. The transient addicted population and people with extreme mental illnesses in Philly have been increasing in number and spread throughout the city though.

Re: Downtown San Francisco is at a tipping-point

#149

Post by agumonkey »

spaniard89277 wrote: post #139
agumonkey wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how does it manifest in dense cities ? I mean was it a very old tradition of spending time with others, that people kept along centuries ? Is it just sitting at a cafe ? or are there different ideas/rituals (sharing problem fixing, organizing cooking, etc) ?

It's easier to make friends and keep contact. What I've always been told by americans is that keeping in touch becomes difficult because everything is hoping in a car and spend a lot of time driving back and forth. In my city it's 20 min walking max. In Madrid it's not that easy, but still. And it's walking. Improvising plans with people is also easy because you don't have to plan ahead too much.

I see, that's for personal relationships it seems. What about larger groups and larger tasks.. do people also find it natural to gather to renovate a house, or maybe a road, fix a pipe etc etc

Re: Downtown San Francisco is at a tipping-point

#150

Post by hotpotamus »

throwaway6734 wrote: post #137
hotpotamus wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to hear conservatives lament that large cities were unwinnable for Republican candidate, and these days I don't even hear that; it seems that they just accept it as a law of nature that they will be governed by Democrats. And as an example, Jacksonville, Florida just flipped that way. And I wonder - what would Republicans offer a city? My assumption is that they'd just blow a hole in any city budget with tax c…

> what would Republicans offer a city? There are a lot of local policies that are in the vein of the traditional GOP politics (small govt, personal freedom, less regulation, etc.) that are very applicable to urban living but do cut against national GOP politics. If they could separate the local from the national they'd do great. Some examples: * Cutting land use regulations to encourage more housing development. Urba…

From what I see in the comments about San Francisco (I'm a neophyte about it, never having even visited), it does not seem like people are desirous of less regulation. It seems that a tent city/open drug market is about as unregulated as it gets. (I get that ignoring regulations is different from removing them, though the practical difference seems small). I'm also suspicious of the idea that there's some great supply of land or buildings available for cheap housing if only it was deregulated; isn't San Francisco a small place?
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