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Ask HN: Cause of UK e-gates outage?

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Re: Ask HN: Cause of UK e-gates outage?

#41
Nothing specific, but I've seen some big systems from the inside, and I know the kind of thing that leads to failures:

* Back in the 60s they got a big IBM computer to do some stuff. Then later on they needed to do other stuff. The old computer was too expensive and difficult to replace, so they got a new VAX or something to do the new stuff and talk to the old mainframe. Then some PCs got added to do more stuff, and so on. Today the back end consists of many different systems of different ages all talking to each other using different protocols that were designed against different requirements. Newer systems are forever being patched and updated to cope with new requirements, while the code for old requirements lurks waiting to be accidentally reactivated. Each of these systems has its own specialists for care and feeding, but nobody fully understands the whole thing. When something goes down there are not many people who can diagnose the fault and get it back up.

* Government contracts have lots of rules around them to ensure value for money and prevent corruption (see the UK COVID PPE fiasco for what happens when you try to cut these rules out). But the size and complexity make even bidding for a big contract very expensive and complicated, so it tends to be the preserve of a few big companies who chose to specialise in it. Their core competence is winning these contracts, not delivering on them later.

* These rules mean that everything has to be specified in detail up front, so that everybody knows what is supposed to happen. But this makes the whole thing horribly inflexible. As new requirements emerge from the woodwork there is a continuous process of renegotiation.

* The UK civil service is based around the "cult of the gifted amateur". Senior managers are rotated around departments every few years. So the person who kicks off a project is rarely the person who sees it through. Everybody gets to blame someone else for failure.

* When one of these big contractors fails to deliver, the Government has to chose between suing to get their money back (or some of it) in a few years, or getting the at least part of the system they actually need at a higher price. The government doesn't need the money, it needs the system. So the contractor gets to carry on regardless of failure.

* Humans are very bad at managing small risks with large consequences. Many big disaster stories have at their heart someone who decided that the risk was too small to be bothered with.

Re: Ask HN: Cause of UK e-gates outage?

#42
post #33
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of UK government IT is like this and has been forever. There was a short period under the coalition where GDS was set up and they created a consistent framework for people to work with and would open a portion of the market up to smaller players. Now it's mostly large bodyshop middlemen like the prime minister's wife's company taking a 70% cut for the work of a cheap offshore developer.

a lot of the problem is the contract procurement rules, which are written so only large companies are capable of bidding a legacy of EU membership, but I doubt the government has any will to change it

During COVID the government tried skipping those procurement rules in the interests of expediency. The result was a huge corruption scandal.

Re: Ask HN: Cause of UK e-gates outage?

#43
post #39
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except during the coalition things were far better with GDS, while we were in the EU, after the new-labour ppp stuff and before the tory-grift stuff.

GDS didn't bid for contracts, they were part of the the cabinet office and worked on cabinet office projects

Sure. So do that across the whole of government.

Re: Ask HN: Cause of UK e-gates outage?

#44

“Too sensitive to discuss” very likely mean cyber attack

Why would it be though? What is sensitive about signalling in high-level terms cyber attack is suspected? If the worry is that you might be revealing your sources to the perpetrator, then wouldn't mentioning "too sensitive to discuss" already be as revealing to the perpetrator.

Re: Ask HN: Cause of UK e-gates outage?

#45

No insight here, but I've always wondered if the e-gates are doing anything "clever" with the camera, or if they're just connecting you to some call-centre in Swindon where your face and passport details pop up in front of someone with a lot less training than traditional border security. It might be doing facial recognition, but it feels too reliable for the level of facial recognition I expect a consultancy could p…

I have always assumed face recognition because my passport picture has no glasses and the gates never work when I wear my glasses. A human would recognise me, I think.

Interesting. I'm the opposite, my passport photo doesn't have glasses, but I've never taken them off for the gates and I don't think they tell you to, and I've never had a gate fail.

Re: Ask HN: Cause of UK e-gates outage?

#46
post #35

No insight here, but I've always wondered if the e-gates are doing anything "clever" with the camera, or if they're just connecting you to some call-centre in Swindon where your face and passport details pop up in front of someone with a lot less training than traditional border security. It might be doing facial recognition, but it feels too reliable for the level of facial recognition I expect a consultancy could p…

Those stupid gates have never worked for me, and I've always suspected that they are actually just connected to a call-centre type operation. Given how fast my phone can recognise my face (in 3d no less), the e-gates are a total joke.

That's so weird, I use them regularly and have never had a problem in the UK or other countries with them.

I wonder if you're failing due to not recognising your face, or (no offence intended) that you have too high a risk profile in some way due to your passport info, and they decide they want to see you in person.

Re: Ask HN: Cause of UK e-gates outage?

#47

No insight here, but I've always wondered if the e-gates are doing anything "clever" with the camera, or if they're just connecting you to some call-centre in Swindon where your face and passport details pop up in front of someone with a lot less training than traditional border security. It might be doing facial recognition, but it feels too reliable for the level of facial recognition I expect a consultancy could p…

I don't have a full answer but what I observed is that there is always someone that is nearby and "in control". The base I think works like this: - you scan the passport - you look at the camera - your passport details & photo are sent to the control room with your live feed - a guy looks at everything those details plus your immigration history and other info - same guy decides to let you in or send you to a desk Th…

Yeah this is pretty much my assumption. I would imagine that the person doing the judging may not be on site as it's probably cheaper and easier to have a bigger workforce in one office, flex the people in shifts, load balance across all ports with the gates, etc.

I do wonder how much is automated. For example, is the gate fully automated in calculating a risk score and then referring you to a border agent if above a threshold? Is a person looking at the details in realtime to decide that, or are they just doing facial recognition, or are they only involved when the gates fail.

Re: Ask HN: Cause of UK e-gates outage?

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have always assumed face recognition because my passport picture has no glasses and the gates never work when I wear my glasses. A human would recognise me, I think.

Interesting. I'm the opposite, my passport photo doesn't have glasses, but I've never taken them off for the gates and I don't think they tell you to, and I've never had a gate fail.

They do tell you to take them off. But they might be targeting shades more than regular glasses.

Re: Ask HN: Cause of UK e-gates outage?

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I'm the opposite, my passport photo doesn't have glasses, but I've never taken them off for the gates and I don't think they tell you to, and I've never had a gate fail.

They do tell you to take them off. But they might be targeting shades more than regular glasses.

Oh! How weird. Maybe I'm getting the UK gates mixed up with Australia where I'm often travelling to. I do remember looking for a sign and being surprised that I didn't need to take them off recently, but it might have been outbound.

Re: Ask HN: Cause of UK e-gates outage?

#50

No insight here, but I've always wondered if the e-gates are doing anything "clever" with the camera, or if they're just connecting you to some call-centre in Swindon where your face and passport details pop up in front of someone with a lot less training than traditional border security. It might be doing facial recognition, but it feels too reliable for the level of facial recognition I expect a consultancy could p…

I don't know anything about this particular case, but about these systems in general. They can work without any operator or network connection. They verify that you have a valid passport and that the taken image (face) matches the one stored in your passport. But for modern passports they use Extended Access Control which requires up to date terminal certificates to access the data (you have to update them in the range of days) und you can give these systems revocation lists and lists of unwanted persons. If any of this is not updated, they stop working.
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