Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive • Hacker News Board

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#251

Post by yummyfajitas » Sun, Feb 19, 2012, 5:26 AM UTC

Retric wrote: post #249

yummyfajitas wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, where I live (India), libraries are provided by the private sector. So clearly market forces can provided libraries. Second, how much crime is prevented by libraries? Is this the cheapest way to prevent crime? Or would it be cheaper to devote the money to a few more beat cops?

The US library system far supposes India's. There would a few library's near me without public funds. But, most of them would shut down so an equivalent private option does not actually exist. Is it the cheapest way to prevent crime? Is a leading question. Where I live we spend a lot of money on a wide range of things from beat cops to parks and street lights that prevent crime. And library's provide many other servi…

No, the issue isn't their useful function, the issue is their public benefit.

The cost/benefit to evaluate public subsidies is (public benefits) / (public costs). If 90% of the benefits of a library are gained by the users, then it's highly likely that this will be negative.

In such cases, a mixed model is best - i.e., if 10% of the benefits are public, 90% private, then a 10% subsidy for libraries might be justified.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#252

Post by jdietrich » Sun, Feb 19, 2012, 5:29 AM UTC

OP's statement is a strong argument against libraries.

We're spending good money on buildings full of books that inadvertently provide some really important social services. If you've got a bucket catching drips from your leaky roof, you need roof repairs, not a better bucket.

Here in England, we have an organisation that does exactly what the OP is espousing - guiding people who don't know where to turn for help. It's called the Citizens Advice Bureau, it has been in existence since 1939 and it now has 20,000 volunteers working out of 3200 locations. The CAB provides impartial and confidential advice and assistance on just about any issue someone might bring through the doors. Crucially, the CAB is an independent charity, so is trusted by marginalised people in a way that no government agency could be.

I'd like to say that I'm surprised there's no equivalent in the US, but sadly I'm not. I just don't think there are enough Americans prepared to give up big blocks of their time to help people who we'd all cross the street to avoid. I don't think any society that still uses the word "ghetto" in the present tense is capable of building such an organisation.

I understand that there are agencies sporadically providing similar services, but that lack of consistency is half the problem - if your brand isn't ubiquitous, you're failing your most needy clients. Now please, go out and prove me wrong. Build an absolutely kick-ass advice agency and rub my limey face in it. There are few things that would please me more.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#253

Post by njharman » Sun, Feb 19, 2012, 5:31 AM UTC

greggman wrote: post #65

If you want a community learning center with computers then why are you asking for a library? http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/library Words matter. People skim, people read headlines. If I read "libraries are in trouble" or "more support for libraries" needed I think "no, anyone with a free smart phone can access the entire internet". They can get a netbook for under $300 or probably a used one for under $5…

Even using the shallow definition for Public Libraries > a place in which literary, musical, artistic, or reference materials (as books, manuscripts, recordings, or films) are kept for use but not for sale

That is the exactly what large parts of the Internet is. That they are physically books, cd's, dvds' is absolutely immaterial.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#254

Post by teamonkey » Sun, Feb 19, 2012, 5:43 AM UTC

peregrine wrote: post #118

danielford wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been surprised by the lack of technical ability in my college classes, especially from students that are my age or younger. This semester, a student told me she couldn't find a program to write a short assignment. I sent her a link to OpenOffice and was baffled by how excited she was about it. She informed me that she was writing papers nonstop, just because she was happy to finally have a tool that let her do i…

Sidebar: Memorization is one, highly over valued, facet of intelligence. I've know several of the 'smartest' kids in my classes to be actually very slow, very un perceptive, very 'dumb' by all standards. Nonetheless they got high honors and accolades because they possessed a remarkable ability to memorize and put in crazy hours. Some of these people put int 20+ hours in to get an A in a lab when I would put in 2-3 ho…

They got a better grade in the end, didn't they? I would rather work with someone who can deliver, genius or not.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#255

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Feb 19, 2012, 5:56 AM UTC

gergles wrote: post #202

mickey7 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes. i think the warm fuzzy feeling is how the body internally represents the vague and unspecific expectation of 'social' reward from doing something that benefits others the sense of something being a 'good deed' comes from expecting harmony and general social cooperation (reciprocity) and since the cause effect is so disconnected and complex - it's too difficult to grasp with reason (for some people) and just has…

>.. anyways. people who want and use the library should pay for it. people who don't should not pay. isn't this fair? People who want and use the roads should pay for them. People who don't shouldn't be allowed to drive or walk anywhere. Isn't that fair? People who want and use the police department should pay for it. People who don't should have no protection. Isn't that fair? People who want and use the fire depart…

[deleted]

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#256

Post by ataggart » Sun, Feb 19, 2012, 5:57 AM UTC

gergles wrote: post #202

mickey7 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes. i think the warm fuzzy feeling is how the body internally represents the vague and unspecific expectation of 'social' reward from doing something that benefits others the sense of something being a 'good deed' comes from expecting harmony and general social cooperation (reciprocity) and since the cause effect is so disconnected and complex - it's too difficult to grasp with reason (for some people) and just has…

>.. anyways. people who want and use the library should pay for it. people who don't should not pay. isn't this fair? People who want and use the roads should pay for them. People who don't shouldn't be allowed to drive or walk anywhere. Isn't that fair? People who want and use the police department should pay for it. People who don't should have no protection. Isn't that fair? People who want and use the fire depart…

Relevant:

http://reason.com/blog/2010/10/06/let-it-burn-or-not-fulton-...

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#257

Post by Retric » Sun, Feb 19, 2012, 6:02 AM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #251

Retric wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US library system far supposes India's. There would a few library's near me without public funds. But, most of them would shut down so an equivalent private option does not actually exist. Is it the cheapest way to prevent crime? Is a leading question. Where I live we spend a lot of money on a wide range of things from beat cops to parks and street lights that prevent crime. And library's provide many other servi…

No, the issue isn't their useful function, the issue is their public benefit . The cost/benefit to evaluate public subsidies is (public benefits) / (public costs). If 90% of the benefits of a library are gained by the users, then it's highly likely that this will be negative. In such cases, a mixed model is best - i.e., if 10% of the benefits are public, 90% private, then a 10% subsidy for libraries might be justifie…

But, Public Benefit always = Sum of all Private Benefits. You may be thinking direct benefit vs external benefit, but as everyone utility functions are separate their share of the public benefit is different. I specifically mentioned my personal cost (as a share of the public cost) and my personal (indirect) benefit to help clarify the issue, but I think you missed that point.

Cost and benefit are also independent. It possible for a Polio vaccine to provide 100,000 times the public benefit relative to it's cost (eliminating a disease for all time can easily be worth vaccinating people on the other side of the planet). Research can also easily have that magnitude benefit ratio's.

And (public benefits) / (public costs) is only negative if public benefits or public costs are negative you might be thinking Benefits - Costs but that does not really fit the rest of your equations either. Anyway, the idea that public subsidy's should not exceed the ratio of (individual benefit) / (public benefit) sounds good until the public benefit exceeds the cost at which point there is little for an individual to pay the costs.

PS: There is a reason people get PHD's in economics it's a lot more complex than you might think. Just consider adding different levels of diminishing returns to all of those cost benefit equations and your still barely scratching the surface.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#258

Post by eaurouge » Sun, Feb 19, 2012, 6:40 AM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #252

OP's statement is a strong argument against libraries. We're spending good money on buildings full of books that inadvertently provide some really important social services. If you've got a bucket catching drips from your leaky roof, you need roof repairs, not a better bucket. Here in England, we have an organisation that does exactly what the OP is espousing - guiding people who don't know where to turn for help. It…

Having in lived in both countries, and being originally from neither, I can tell you that's not true. I obviously don't know what percentage of the population would be willing to volunteer their time, but I don't think the English are any more altruistic than Americans are.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#259

Post by vacri » Sun, Feb 19, 2012, 6:53 AM UTC

xenophanes wrote: post #30

urbanjunkie wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they are a great idea, why not persuade people to voluntarily pay for them? Because, in this specific case, the people who most need libraries can often barely afford to pay for food and shelter. Libraries are such an obvious public good that I will never understand why they're not treated (both in the US and in the UK, and perhaps in other countries), as a basic and absolute necessity. [edited to add not which…

I meant persuade people with money to pay for them. You value them. Why don't you pay something voluntarily? And a thousand other yous? Why doesn't Bill Gates throw some money at it if it's a super efficient use of resources? He will, and many other non-poor people will, if they are persuaded it's a better use of their resources than Greenpeace, Oxfam, malaria medicine for Africa, clean water for Africa, and so on. I…

One of the (many) flaws with libertarian dogma is the assumption that a person can be intelligently informed about every aspect that might affect them, from social effects of libraries to air quality to choosing services right down to who picks up the garbage. Building regulations? Who needs those, right? Let's just replace it by doing 'buyer beware' and making every purchaser of a property have to do an in-depth research of everything, down to what kind of metal the pipes were made out of.

Volunteer charity also only works for visible problems. There's no need for it to go away, but to suggest it could replace (and improve on!) governmental social services is just silly. Everyone gave money to Katrina funds... when it happened. What percentage of the original donators were still donating 6 months later? 12 months? 24 months? Same question for Haiti. Private charity is good for the initial burst for visible causes, but it sucks for ongoing support on the grand scale.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#260

Post by vacri » Sun, Feb 19, 2012, 7:13 AM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #35

I'm going to reject one of the premises of the article, namely the premise that he is helping people who are "barely surviving". Let's consider people who are receiving cash or non-cash benefits, as the article described. Among these people, 67% have cable or satellite TV. 38% have a playstation. 47% own a computer. 23% have a big screen TV. Only 14% of people receiving government benefits lacked all of these luxurie…

6 months ago, I wandered through the Mekong delta, in swampland where half the houses were palm shacks. Standing swamp water all around, no running water (clean or otherwise), shoddy power cables... and yet I still saw the occasional home with a big-screen TV. Sure, older models, CRTs for the most part, but people don't seem too keen on comparing what kind of TVs are around. So some of these incredibly poor swamp-dwellers have TVs, in an area where there are frequently no lights once the sun goes down. We should probably allude that they're wealthy as well, based on that single commodity good.

Another thing your 'shame the poor' position doesn't allow is for people to receive hand-me-downs, or merely to have previously been in better conditions when they could afford luxuries and now have no cashflow or liquid assets. Hell, I've given away about four old laptops (two I inherited free) and have made and given several free-of-charge desktops, two with monitors included.

This is where social conservatism and libertarianism gets you coming and going - "Look - voluntary charity covers the cracks"... then they turn around and admonish the poor for daring to have such items - "You have a 'computer', therefore you're not struggling"