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Mastering Monero: The future of private transactions [pdf] (2019)

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Re: Mastering Monero: The future of private transactions [pdf] (2019)

#31

Post by AlexandrB »

jrm4 wrote: post #4
WrtCdEvrydy wrote: post #2

Crypto content on HN... this is either gonna go really great or the opposite of that.

Yup. It's always felt like there's a disproportionate amount of hate for crypto -- not that people should like it or love it, but that I'm surprised that tech people here don't appear to understand its inevitability. So it seems like they treat it as something to be killed (impossible) as opposed to something to buckle up and get ready to manage (more or less like they correctly do with AI.)

> I'm surprised that tech people here don't appear to understand its inevitability.

All progress depends on the "unreasonable man". I don't think it's inevitable at all, nor have I seen any evidence that it will be. Thus far non-government blockchains have proven to be ill suited for applications other than speculation (and crime). Central bank "programmable money" is definitely a threat - but it's hardly inevitable if popular opposition is vigorous enough.

If you were to ask a tech enthusiast in 2010, they'd might you that 3D TVs were inevitable. Instead they fizzled out. Then there's "the Metaverse", which seems to be on bumpy terrain as well. SPACs seem to be doing not so hot[1]. Not every tech/financial trend sticks around if the value proposition isn't there. And the value proposition for cryptocurrency is very poor in my view.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special-purpose_acquisition_co...

Re: Mastering Monero: The future of private transactions [pdf] (2019)

#32

Post by AlexandrB »

suslik wrote: post #26
psychoslave wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No hate, but no interest either. After all these years, all scam stories apart, what crypto allow its users to do that they would not be able to do otherwise with less resources? Really I don’t know, and I admit I never wanted to dig the topic as there are many other topic I will never have the time to learn and yet doesn’t seem to have such an issue of what is at best a tremendous noise/signal ratio.

> what crypto allow its users to do that they would not be able to do otherwise with less resources International money transfers, for instance. The traditional banking system was always slow and expensive, and, on top of that, countries cut each other out due to geopolitical reasons. Many third-world countries have a decent crypto adoption, you can send someone money in a matter of minutes (I do).

> and, on top of that, countries cut each other out due to geopolitical reasons

For a sovereign state this is a feature, not a bug. If you think that countries will take sending of funds to embargoed countries lying down you are sorely mistaken.

Re: Mastering Monero: The future of private transactions [pdf] (2019)

#33

Post by trw_phy »

EscapeFromNY wrote: post #19

Monero is perhaps the only cryptocurrency that both works as advertised, and has gathered a self-sustaining userbase. No $20 transaction fees. No influencer pump and dumps. No VCs who need to extract value. No fork drama. No unrealistic roadmap. No charismatic leader boiling the frog with scope creep. It's not trying to be an investment. It's actually private. It's actually anonymous. This is all a lot of us ever wan…

[flagged]

Re: Mastering Monero: The future of private transactions [pdf] (2019)

#35

Post by Yizahi »

jrm4 wrote: post #4
WrtCdEvrydy wrote: post #2

Crypto content on HN... this is either gonna go really great or the opposite of that.

Yup. It's always felt like there's a disproportionate amount of hate for crypto -- not that people should like it or love it, but that I'm surprised that tech people here don't appear to understand its inevitability. So it seems like they treat it as something to be killed (impossible) as opposed to something to buckle up and get ready to manage (more or less like they correctly do with AI.)

Inevitable for law avoidance? Sure. We know quite well that humans like very much systems which allow them to avoid laws of any kind, so of course such a system will survive for a long time.

Inevitable for lawful daily usage? Nope. Fundamental problems and lack of benefits will prevent blockchain based ledgers to be deployed in any useful scalable way. Actually not "will" but rather "did". Token proposals had a decade of time already and all failed (except for law avoidance of course). Any legitimate proposal has failed spectacularly:

1) Legal currency - failed due to no privacy, bad performance, atrocious UX, unstable exchange rate, shady providers;

2) Distributed storage - fail

3) Distributed calculator - fail

4) Distributed network (Helium) - fail

5) Smart contracts - neither smart nor contracts, very pricey, limited functions (on chain only), oracle problem unsolved

6) NFT - one big lie, impossible to implement any promise made about them because they don't facilitate transfer of the ownership

7) Supply chain ideas - fail, the problem is not securing the DB but securing the humans doing data input in the DB

Anything else I've forgot? Basically most of the good ideas on paper turned out to be either impossible or impractical with blockchains.

Re: Mastering Monero: The future of private transactions [pdf] (2019)

#36

Post by Koshkin »

candiddevmike wrote: post #24
capableweb wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Bitcoin is awesome because unlike cash, digital transfers are built into the system. Now, just like cash wasn't built with digital transfers in mind, neither was Bitcoin built with anonymity in mind, so not sure why Monero would be better/worse than Bitcoin for a thing Bitcoin was never made for in the first place. The purpose of Bitcoin was never that all transactions were anonymous. Monero is great for this…

Unlike cash, Bitcoin keeps a public log of everything you've bought though.

> you

For some definitions of "you"

Re: Mastering Monero: The future of private transactions [pdf] (2019)

#37

Post by vitehozonage »

capableweb wrote: post #21
qzx_pierri wrote: post #12

I think Monero is awesome because it's actually designed to be an anonymous payment system. Unlike Bitcoin, anonymity is built into each transaction. No need for washing your coins via sketchy "tumbler" services.

I think Bitcoin is awesome because unlike cash, digital transfers are built into the system. Now, just like cash wasn't built with digital transfers in mind, neither was Bitcoin built with anonymity in mind, so not sure why Monero would be better/worse than Bitcoin for a thing Bitcoin was never made for in the first place. The purpose of Bitcoin was never that all transactions were anonymous. Monero is great for this…

The bitcoin whitepaper is titled 'Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System'. Cash is private and peer-to-peer. Peer-to-peer is impossible if chain analysis companies are required in the middle, as it is now to make sure you don't get 'bad coins'.

Other issues are opened up like the possiblity that a coalition of mining pools will censor transactions in the future.

Bitcoin has clearly failed at its originally intended purpose and monero is now what it wanted to be

Re: Mastering Monero: The future of private transactions [pdf] (2019)

#38

Post by suslik »

AlexandrB wrote: post #32
suslik wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what crypto allow its users to do that they would not be able to do otherwise with less resources International money transfers, for instance. The traditional banking system was always slow and expensive, and, on top of that, countries cut each other out due to geopolitical reasons. Many third-world countries have a decent crypto adoption, you can send someone money in a matter of minutes (I do).

> and, on top of that, countries cut each other out due to geopolitical reasons For a sovereign state this is a feature, not a bug. If you think that countries will take sending of funds to embargoed countries lying down you are sorely mistaken.

Sure, and that's exactly why sovereign states don't like monero and mixers - but that is their problem, not mine. Also, in many cases transferring crypto is not illegal - for instance, it is legal to transfer money to non-sanction banks in Russia, but in many countries, the banking system doesn't allow that. If you had a 90y.o. starving grandma there, you'd be grateful for the crypto.

Re: Mastering Monero: The future of private transactions [pdf] (2019)

#39

Post by imtringued »

jrm4 wrote: post #4
WrtCdEvrydy wrote: post #2

Crypto content on HN... this is either gonna go really great or the opposite of that.

Yup. It's always felt like there's a disproportionate amount of hate for crypto -- not that people should like it or love it, but that I'm surprised that tech people here don't appear to understand its inevitability. So it seems like they treat it as something to be killed (impossible) as opposed to something to buckle up and get ready to manage (more or less like they correctly do with AI.)

I don't see cryptocurrencies as something to be killed. I think the vast majority of them are illogical, based on wishful thinking and severe ignorance or outright scams. People will point out one among twenty thousand without realizing that the exception proves the rule.

Yeah sure keep speculating on your "digital gold" I don't care. Unlike holding dollars as demand deposits or cash, you can't hijack the economy. You are accountable for the risks you take but that doesn't mean anyone is going to use Bitcoin or Ethereum to pay their groceries, especially since so many of the crypto credit card companies love operating in jurisdictions where they are completely unaware about the tax implications of their product. What a well thought out business model...

Even though Europe/EU is embracing a regulatory framework for cryptocurrencies and making it easier to do business, crypto exchanges operate in regulatory safe havens, engage in shady practices or get hacked and lose your money.

Re: Mastering Monero: The future of private transactions [pdf] (2019)

#40

Post by Lutger »

johtso wrote: post #30
capableweb wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Bitcoin is awesome because unlike cash, digital transfers are built into the system. Now, just like cash wasn't built with digital transfers in mind, neither was Bitcoin built with anonymity in mind, so not sure why Monero would be better/worse than Bitcoin for a thing Bitcoin was never made for in the first place. The purpose of Bitcoin was never that all transactions were anonymous. Monero is great for this…

Really not sure what you're trying to say here. People use Bitcoin for anonymous transactions and jump through various hoops to try and achieve this goal (for example using tumbling services). It seems perfectly valid to say Monero is better for anonymous transactions than Bitcoin. I'm not sure why it matters what it was "made for". All that matters is what it is used for in practice. This does not seem like a mislea…

If something is better than some other thing at achieving the same goals, then it is just better, period. If it turns out that, what people really wanted was an efficient way to launder money, then Monero is not really 'better' than bitcoin perse, but it rather solves a different, more popular problem instead.

Presumably it matters because the person you are replying to cares more about the less popular problem.

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