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htmx

htmx.org

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Re: htmx

#141

Post by SanderNL »

julianeon wrote: post #138
genmud wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might be going against the grain here, but the JS ecosystem is just a series of goalposts that are constantly moving and it has burned so many people over the years that folks just don’t want to deal with it. I’m fine learning JS, but with the ecosystem it isn’t just learning JS. It’s learning the new hotness for packaging / versioning, it’s the frameworks that are constantly in flux, it’s the inconsistent abstract…

I think this comment is a bit out of date, especially if you’ve been watching JS from a distance for the past couple decades. This would’ve been true circa 2014. In 2023 it’s obsolete. There’s one framework that won, that’s all you have to learn, as far as the industry goes (as opposed to hobbyists) it’s been decided. React won. React is the framework you learn. “Popular frameworks for the past 6 years” - React has b…

That’s a bubble. You are in a bubble. React is dominant, sure, like the US is dominant, but it’s not The World.

Re: htmx

#142

Post by seattle_spring »

listenallyall wrote: post #44
chatmasta wrote: post #6

I continue to be impressed at the effort people will put into avoiding writing any JavaScript. Is it really easier to learn yet another DSL embedded in attribute tags rather than taking a day to setup your JS dev environment and then writing idiomatic code for running inside a web browser? Surely your htmx project will eventually cross a complexity threshold where you've added enough scaffolding that you may as well…

Never seen a tool where the people who don't use it seem to make up some of the craziest, most obscure, weirdest justifications for avoidance. It's totally fine if you're not personally down with HTMX! However, stating that we're avoiding "idiomatic code" is incorrect. Are you claiming React and JSX and useEffect are idiomatic? Really? Surrounding HTML fragments with return() and attributes with braces is idiomatic?…

> Never seen a tool where the people who don't use it seem to make up some of the craziest, most obscure, weirdest justifications for avoidance

Sure you have: literally any frontend framework post, from React and Vue to roll-up, webpack, and everything in between. Tons of non-FE engineers or engineers that work on small and trivial apps will flood in to say why the lib in question, and usually the entire FE ecosystem, are crazy, rapidly changing, undecipherable, etc.

Re: htmx

#144

Post by noduerme »

The_Colonel wrote: post #129
hakfoo wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I hate is that you don't even write JavaScript anymore. You write fantasy future JavaScript. Sure, it will be available in ECMAScript 23, scheduled to drop in real browsers in 2092. But for now, here's a convoluted mess of polyfills, Babel, and WebPack, that we HOPE papers over the real behaviour of browsers, and suddenly your test-and-debug cycle has introduced a flow-shattering 15-second build cycle each time…

There's actually no need for that anymore. JavaScript as is supported right now in the latest Chrome, Firefox and Safari is already pretty good. You can get quite far without any backend tooling these days. The only thing which I believe is still needed is a bundler when your project grows to a certain size. Fetching a complex graph of thousands of files will likely never be fast.

Even bundlers can be pretty stupid and simple. I still just use r.js for even large apps. Webpack isn't hard to set up, either. But my frontend code has almost no dependencies... I refuse to deal with React, Angular, etc etc. I have a very nice, simple component-building / screen scaffolding system that's about 1000 LOC. You extend the component and load up some HTML and just work with it directly in JS when you want to update data, resize it, etc. There's no need for all these frameworks that try to plant logic back into HTML. I love having the HTML templates pure and the logic unbound from them.

Re: htmx

#145

Post by winrid »

cosmojg wrote: post #5

Heh, the "Memes" section of their Essays page is brilliant: https://htmx.org/essays/#memes

Those are great.

What's the logo of the cornucopia looking thing next to the django and rails logos?

Re: htmx

#146

Post by SanderNL »

chatmasta wrote: post #6

I continue to be impressed at the effort people will put into avoiding writing any JavaScript. Is it really easier to learn yet another DSL embedded in attribute tags rather than taking a day to setup your JS dev environment and then writing idiomatic code for running inside a web browser? Surely your htmx project will eventually cross a complexity threshold where you've added enough scaffolding that you may as well…

You accept 5% complexity to completely drop all the rest. “Bundlers”? Please.

I know that from a webdev bubble it seems the world is made of JS - I should rather say “and its various frameworks” - but that is not the case. There are lots of places where keeping the surface area small is very much appreciated and the concept of using “bundlers” for your moderately complex crud interface will get you laughed out the room. I guess that is where htmx can shine, not in webdev consultancies.

Re: htmx

#147

Post by creatable »

listenallyall wrote: post #137
creatable wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do I continue to see people imply that React is the only way of writing frontend web applications with JavaScript? There are plenty of alternatives to React that I would say are far more "idiomatic". I highly recommend taking a look at Vue 3 or Svelte to get a better idea of what frontend JavaScript can be.

React isn't the only way, of course, but it's likely the most popular. Why do you consider Vue or Svelte to be valid alternatives but not HTMX, despite plenty of people endorsing it and openly proclaiming how successful it's been in their projects?

I personally do consider HTMX to be a valid alternative to React, but I also think that a lot of usage / promotion of it comes from people who are misinformed and think that the entirety of the JavaScript ecosystem is React. I consistently see a lot of people use HTMX over React alternatives purely because of a "distaste for JavaScript" or an understanding that everything is or has to be as complex as React unless you're using HTMX.

Re: htmx

#148

Post by arcanemachiner »

number6 wrote: post #134
The_Colonel wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's actually no need for that anymore. JavaScript as is supported right now in the latest Chrome, Firefox and Safari is already pretty good. You can get quite far without any backend tooling these days. The only thing which I believe is still needed is a bundler when your project grows to a certain size. Fetching a complex graph of thousands of files will likely never be fast.

Do you still use gulp or is it webpack nowadays?

It's JavaScript. Everyone is moving on to Turbopack. Or Vite. Or ESBuild. Or Bun.

Re: htmx

#149

Post by chaxor »

chatmasta wrote: post #6

I continue to be impressed at the effort people will put into avoiding writing any JavaScript. Is it really easier to learn yet another DSL embedded in attribute tags rather than taking a day to setup your JS dev environment and then writing idiomatic code for running inside a web browser? Surely your htmx project will eventually cross a complexity threshold where you've added enough scaffolding that you may as well…

Many people may disable js when browsing. So there's that.

Re: htmx

#150

Post by kkapelon »

julianeon wrote: post #138
genmud wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might be going against the grain here, but the JS ecosystem is just a series of goalposts that are constantly moving and it has burned so many people over the years that folks just don’t want to deal with it. I’m fine learning JS, but with the ecosystem it isn’t just learning JS. It’s learning the new hotness for packaging / versioning, it’s the frameworks that are constantly in flux, it’s the inconsistent abstract…

I think this comment is a bit out of date, especially if you’ve been watching JS from a distance for the past couple decades. This would’ve been true circa 2014. In 2023 it’s obsolete. There’s one framework that won, that’s all you have to learn, as far as the industry goes (as opposed to hobbyists) it’s been decided. React won. React is the framework you learn. “Popular frameworks for the past 6 years” - React has b…

> React won. React is the framework you learn

So nobody should learn AngularJS any more?

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