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htmx

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Re: htmx

#61

Post by benatkin »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #56
benatkin wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's some code that I don't find especially idiomatic: It has a multiline HTML attribute value and an unfamiliar programming language with the english word me that is sure to be confusing to some who don't speak it as a first language. https://htmx.org/docs/#validation-example

the code here is hyperscript, not htmx: https://hyperscript.org i use hyperscript because I created it and like it, but the example could just as easily use JavaScript, the point is to show that htmx respects custom validations

The docs don't seem to suggest using it for non-trivial things without hyperscript. https://htmx.org/docs/

They do suggest being able to use it without learning a lot of hyperscript, but I see the same with Svelte, where you can get by on copying and pasting a great deal. https://learn.svelte.dev/

Re: htmx

#63

Post by dicriseg »

dimatura wrote: post #60
chatmasta wrote: post #6

I continue to be impressed at the effort people will put into avoiding writing any JavaScript. Is it really easier to learn yet another DSL embedded in attribute tags rather than taking a day to setup your JS dev environment and then writing idiomatic code for running inside a web browser? Surely your htmx project will eventually cross a complexity threshold where you've added enough scaffolding that you may as well…

I've used htmx to write some relatively simple internal tools, and it's been really useful for that. I know a little javascript, but my web skills are really outdated - I acquired them back when you rendered HTML on the server and maybe added a little interactivity with jquery. With that background, using htmx to swap out elements (rendered server-side with Jinja templates in flask) has been a lot more productive for…

This is exactly what I use it for. It keeps me working mostly in python, flask, and jinja, which I know a lot better than js. For just doing some background requests and element swapping, it’s absolutely more efficient for me.

Re: htmx

#64

Post by egeozcan »

trog wrote: post #34
benatkin wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what you're saying demonstrably doesn't apply to the majority of developers. You could follow something like this: https://learn.svelte.dev/tutorial/welcome-to-svelte However you would just be able to do what you can do with SvelteKit (Parts 3 and 4). Not too different from what you can do with HTMX. You would need to deploy SvelteKit but could have SvelteKit call your backend API for all of the heavy lifting…

> You could follow something like this: https://learn.svelte.dev/tutorial/welcome-to-svelte I think if you are, like me, someone who for various reasons never followed the JavaScript ecosystem for various reasons over the last few years (in my case because I was working on exclusively backend APIs in C#), coming back into trying to do any frontend website is just ten thousand people saying "it's not that hard, just f…

htmx is yet another one of those forty hundred humongous different frameworks.

It also uses a DSL that has no application outside of its specific corner.

It also forces you to return HTML fragments via AJAX.

By the way I did use intercooler.js (prev. iteration of htmx) intensively and while I liked it at first, it really added up to being an HTML/JS soup when other developers started extending.

Re: htmx

#65

Post by pbohun »

This is the first time I've been excited to learn about a new web technology in a while. I'm going to have to play around with this to see how I want to use it. I wonder what other little things like this could be used to simplify webdev?

Re: htmx

#67

Post by slmjkdbtl »

chatmasta wrote: post #6

I continue to be impressed at the effort people will put into avoiding writing any JavaScript. Is it really easier to learn yet another DSL embedded in attribute tags rather than taking a day to setup your JS dev environment and then writing idiomatic code for running inside a web browser? Surely your htmx project will eventually cross a complexity threshold where you've added enough scaffolding that you may as well…

I think one big up with this html-centered approach is you don't have to worry about SSR

Re: htmx

#68

Post by listenallyall »

benatkin wrote: post #58
listenallyall wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would likely agree, however this example makes heavy use of hyperscript, which is an associated project by the same author, but is distinct from HTMX.

How do you do validation with custom error messages without it? It seems pretty table stakes for forms to me. Where are the docs that make it easy to avoid hyperscript, if it's usable without hyperscript? This has hyperscript sprinkled in: https://htmx.org/docs/

HTML already has a native validation API for form elements. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn/Forms/Form_va... HTMX wraps that with some custom events and enables you to use the same API for non-form elements.

In the example above, if you need custom validation logic, you could handle the HTMX:validation:validate event with any normal JS event handler.

Of course, it's up to you to decide how much effort to put into client-side validation that can be easily bypassed.

Re: htmx

#69

Post by recursivedoubts »

benatkin wrote: post #61
recursivedoubts wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the code here is hyperscript, not htmx: https://hyperscript.org i use hyperscript because I created it and like it, but the example could just as easily use JavaScript, the point is to show that htmx respects custom validations

The docs don't seem to suggest using it for non-trivial things without hyperscript. https://htmx.org/docs/ They do suggest being able to use it without learning a lot of hyperscript, but I see the same with Svelte, where you can get by on copying and pasting a great deal. https://learn.svelte.dev/

most of the examples don't have any hyperscript in them

htmx generalizes HTML as a hypermedia, making any element a hypermedia control that can issue any type of HTTP request in response to any event and target any element in the DOM for replacement

that's the concept, improve HTML, and it gives you quite a bit more than plain HTML, but it is intentionally constrained to not go beyond that

for things beyond what that gives you, I am not afraid to recommend scripting: Fielding explicitly included scripting as an optional constraint his description of the REST-ful architecture of the web

A good example of how we like to see scripting used w/ a hypermedia system is the Sortable.js demo, which shows htmx integrating w/ Sortable.js via events, the cleanest way to integrate hypermedia controls w/ client side scripting:

https://htmx.org/examples/sortable/

we have a chapter on client-side scripting in hypermedia systems here:

https://hypermedia.systems/book/client-side-scripting/

Re: htmx

#70

Post by sgc »

Does this cause problems for web crawlers indexing sites, since these are not typical js event listeners etc? Even though they must use them in the background, there is an abstraction the crawler must be able to navigate. I had an entire site de-indexed for getting too fancy once, so I worry about this type of thing perpetually now.
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