Whistleblower drops 100 GB of Tesla secrets to German news site • Hacker News Board

Re: Whistleblower drops 100 GB of Tesla secrets to German news site

#261

Post by jjoonathan » Thu, May 25, 2023, 10:53 PM UTC

squarefoot wrote: post #237

jjoonathan wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla self-driving is better than a bad human driver. There are loads of bad human drivers on the road. Someone has to be liable, but I don't really care if it falls to Musk or a Musk simp. I do care if we kick yet another key technology out of the US only to have to rent it back years later when someone else picks up the torch. Let's not do that.

Can you be absolutely certain that self driving can deal safely with every possible road irregularities, obstacles, bad, incomplete, damaged or tampered road signs, and other unpredictable events? Self driving on public roads done right is damn hard; probably harder than sending a manned but completely automated spaceship to Mars and back.

Yeah, it's a hard problem, but researchers are smart

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRdUjrOnKdw

and human drivers do not set an infinitely high bar.

Re: Whistleblower drops 100 GB of Tesla secrets to German news site

#262

Post by Spooky23 » Thu, May 25, 2023, 10:54 PM UTC

jjoonathan wrote: post #238

plagiarist wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is delusional. "It's fine because I watched some videos and some irresponsible people often drive recklessly anyway."

[flagged]

NHSTA is infected by the woke virus. Elon knows what you need. If your car crashes into a wall or whatever, it’s probably your fault anyway.

Re: Whistleblower drops 100 GB of Tesla secrets to German news site

#263

Post by robertlagrant » Thu, May 25, 2023, 10:54 PM UTC

andybak wrote: post #163

robertlagrant wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You only need 2 seconds to be safe. It's longer than you think.

3 is the guidance in the UK at least

> You should ... allow at least a two-second gap between you and the vehicle in front on high-speed roads and in tunnels where visibility is reduced. The gap should be at least doubled on wet roads and up to ten times greater on icy roads

Highway code rule 126[0] says 2?

[0] https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/general-rules-t...

Re: Whistleblower drops 100 GB of Tesla secrets to German news site

#264

Post by robertlagrant » Thu, May 25, 2023, 10:55 PM UTC

JumpinJack_Cash wrote: post #208

robertlagrant wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Therefore they scream in their advertising? It doesn't remain to be seen if claims about their existing advertising are nonsense. They are.

They spend all their ad budget for personal Musk propaganda, which is even more effective considering how the U.S. is very sensitive to the myth of the 'self made man who pulled up his own bootstraps' .

Therefore they scream in their advertising?

Re: Whistleblower drops 100 GB of Tesla secrets to German news site

#265

Post by ilyt » Thu, May 25, 2023, 10:55 PM UTC

harles wrote: post #169

jjoonathan wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla self-driving is better than a bad human driver. There are loads of bad human drivers on the road. Someone has to be liable, but I don't really care if it falls to Musk or a Musk simp. I do care if we kick yet another key technology out of the US only to have to rent it back years later when someone else picks up the torch. Let's not do that.

> Tesla self-driving is better than a bad human driver. Genuine question: what evidence is there of this?

I mean I'd imagine the evidence being pretty simple, put someone that can't drive behind the wheel, boom, worse than tesla

Re: Whistleblower drops 100 GB of Tesla secrets to German news site

#266

Post by Spooky23 » Thu, May 25, 2023, 10:56 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #152

forty wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of accident might be lower (no idea) but still, If I'm responsible of killing/injuring someone with my car, I'll pay the consequences. If Tesla is responsible of killing/injuring someone with their car (when they drive through the autopilot), they must also pay the price (probably damages or jail depending of the situation).

How is that any different from any other product from any other manufacturer, though? Tort law has a thousand year history in our culture. Is there something specific about Tesla that needs something new? I mean, what you say is sorta specious. Of course that's true, it's always true. The interesting question is "are the cars dangerous?". And the answer seems to be a pretty emphatic no, at this point. So instead ever…

Tort law requires evidence. The only entity with actual evidence of what the car did is the entity who is the defendant in the litigation.

All of the elements of the Tesla business model like no repairs, no dealers, etc are all about maintaining that control.

Re: Whistleblower drops 100 GB of Tesla secrets to German news site

#267

Post by jasonwatkinspdx » Thu, May 25, 2023, 10:56 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #61

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a wry joke that the e in email stands for indictment. That said, I don't think we should excuse or normalize sociopathic and customer hostile behavior from businesses.

Yeah, but that is mostly hinting on how normalized fraud became in business.

I agree. It's disappointing and it's one of the big picture trends I've seen continuously as I age.

Re: Whistleblower drops 100 GB of Tesla secrets to German news site

#268

Post by runarberg » Thu, May 25, 2023, 10:57 PM UTC

jjoonathan wrote: post #191

stilist wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it actually better than a bad human driver? (And what’s your metric for ‘bad’ — tired, drunk, distracted, a teenager who just got their license but didn’t actually practice enough?) Because I’ve watched enough videos of people having to quickly override Full Self-Driving in ordinary situations that I’m really skeptical that it’s better than most drivers. I’d be willing to say that in practice FSD usage is small en…

Every time one of these threads come around I search youtube for a FSD video and qualitatively evaluate what comes up. If you google FSD fail compilation, you'll get a FSD fail compilation. You can do the same for humans.

I think your parent’s question is completely justified by having anecdotes. They aren’t stating a fact, they are raising doubts of a claim. One does not need scientific evidence to raise doubts about a claim which it self has limited—and sometimes no—evidence behind it. Repeated real world examples are sufficient for such doubts.

Now if FSD proponents want to stop people from having doubts, they need to run several experiments in very diverse settings (as diverse as real world driving). In the absence of sufficient evidence, a skeptic is completely justified.

Re: Whistleblower drops 100 GB of Tesla secrets to German news site

#269

Post by Spooky23 » Thu, May 25, 2023, 10:57 PM UTC

hammock wrote: post #120

eterevsky wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When a manufacturer is selling millions of cars, I think it's better to judge their safety using statistics rather than some qualitative reasoning. Are Teslas measurably less safe than other cars? I.e. is the accident probability per km driven on a Tesla higher than on another car? I haven't seen any data suggesting that, but I'm happy to be corrected.

>When a manufacturer is selling millions of cars, I think it's better to judge their safety using statistics rather than some qualitative reasoning. Why do you think that? If we used statistics to guide criminal justice policy we’d be in big trouble

Dog whistles aside, the entire justice system is driven by stats.

Re: Whistleblower drops 100 GB of Tesla secrets to German news site

#270

Post by ilyt » Thu, May 25, 2023, 10:57 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #152

forty wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of accident might be lower (no idea) but still, If I'm responsible of killing/injuring someone with my car, I'll pay the consequences. If Tesla is responsible of killing/injuring someone with their car (when they drive through the autopilot), they must also pay the price (probably damages or jail depending of the situation).

How is that any different from any other product from any other manufacturer, though? Tort law has a thousand year history in our culture. Is there something specific about Tesla that needs something new? I mean, what you say is sorta specious. Of course that's true, it's always true. The interesting question is "are the cars dangerous?". And the answer seems to be a pretty emphatic no, at this point. So instead ever…

Well, it is a bit different. FSD theoretically can get driver into bad situation, then beep at them "I can't handle that", and as long as beeping was early enough that's no fault of Tesla even if the start of the event chain was caused by it.

Also Full Self Driving is extremely deceptive name for feature that does not do that