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Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

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Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#51

Post by reinhardt »

xenophanes wrote: post #18
pavs wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ust because something is good doesn't mean the tax payers should pay for it. There are other options. if you remove 'good' with 'useful', and it seems to me that this is exactly what tax payers should pay for. There are tons of useless shit tax money is used for, libraries is not one of them.

You seem to have no idea what the libertarian position is. So I'll try to help: Just because something is super good and super useful -- and uncontroversially worthwhile -- like groceries, cars, delivery of packages, the production of beds, health care, retirement savings, and so on ... absolutely does not imply that the Government should be paying for it with tax money. Libertarians believe that Government is kind o…

3) for things that provide value but don't (necessarily) make money. And no, persuading people to voluntarily pay for these is not generally sustainable.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#52

Post by urbanjunkie »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #45
urbanjunkie wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they are a great idea, why not persuade people to voluntarily pay for them? Because, in this specific case, the people who most need libraries can often barely afford to pay for food and shelter. Libraries are such an obvious public good that I will never understand why they're not treated (both in the US and in the UK, and perhaps in other countries), as a basic and absolute necessity. [edited to add not which…

Libraries are a private good, not a public good. Since so many people seem to be getting confused on this point, I'll just post these articles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_good The fact that their customers are broke (but not so broke they can't afford cable TV) doesn't change this.

And you know they can afford cable tv how, exactly?

There are apparently 1.5 million homeless children in the US. Are they watching cable tv?

But it's ok - you can link to the correct definition of public vs private good.

I'm actually disgusted by your attitude.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#53

Post by sophacles »

unimpressive wrote: post #10
jph wrote: post #3

Excelllent view from the inside. The problem the article highlights is filling out gov't forms that have moved to the web; these are often just PDF scans. These gov't forms are often ripe for improvement via improved UX with step-by-step inputs, contextual help, and multi-language capabilities.

"These gov't forms are often ripe for improvement via improved UX with step-by-step inputs, contextual help, and multi-language capabilities." Sure, and this would undoubtedly relieve a lot of pain points. But the authors intent here goes deeper than just interface. A significant, very non-trivial portion of the population is being left behind by digitalization. These people have no recourse if certain government ins…

Yeah, but explaining why "But computers are a luxury, we shouldn't subsidize those lazy (epithet) people, they should get a job" is a problem, is an interesting exercise. For some reason, people refuse to accept that if you want someone to get a job, but deny them the means to do so, you are being hypocritical and exposing severe cognitive dissonance (seriously more than once I've had someone straight faced tell me "if they want to be able to get computer to apply for jobs, they should get a job"). Yet a large portion of the people don't seem to be able to follow simple causality chains unfortunately. It is both infuriating and saddening.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#54

Post by spindritf »

philwelch wrote: post #17
xenophanes wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The libertarian stance is not "there should be no libraries" but more like "if there is a genuine need for libraries, and value in having them (quite plausible), then Government funding is not the best approach to creating them or running them efficiently". Just because something is good doesn't mean the tax payers should pay for it. There are other options. If they are a great idea, why not persuade people to volunt…

Actually, the libertarian stance is closer to "I have an inherent human right not to pay taxes that outweighs the public good of having things like libraries." There's some handwaving about voluntary charity, but if voluntary charity worked, no one would have invented public services to begin with, and the typical libertarian doesn't really care anyway.

> if voluntary charity worked, no one would have invented public services to begin with

Not to judge this particular use of tax money but of course they would -- it's in the direct interest of the reigning bureaucracy, or any bureaucracy, to expand its scope whether it's necessary or beneficial to the society. It's the same with departments fighting over budget and new hirees.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#55

Post by wizzard »

ck2 wrote: post #43

You know where all the public money has gone for libraries? War. The cost of medical benefits for all the soldiers who are mamed but now can survive for 50 years is staggering and will choke our culture to death. All those weapons, fuel, R&D, "homeland security theater", etc. all part of the massive war machine. But war will always be funded because it's the ultimate high of money and power, to be able to send people…

We don't need an educated populace; we just need soldiers.

How many people become soldiers because they are patriots who want to give their lives for their country, and how many become soldiers because the alternative is poverty?

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#56

Post by xenophanes »

afterburner wrote: post #19
xenophanes wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The libertarian stance is not "there should be no libraries" but more like "if there is a genuine need for libraries, and value in having them (quite plausible), then Government funding is not the best approach to creating them or running them efficiently". Just because something is good doesn't mean the tax payers should pay for it. There are other options. If they are a great idea, why not persuade people to volunt…

They provide the most service to those unable to afford help. Also, they mostly provide the intangible service of raising peoples' education. That's why they don't make money. People only go to college because they think they're screwed if they don't, but almost nothing else education related has that amount of leverage in the peoples' decision-making.

Fundamentally they don't make money because they don't charge, and also don't sit around trying to think of ways to make money (while still remaining true to their core values and purpose). I don't think we should assume it's an insoluble problem. Once one has an audience and does something useful, monetizing can often be tricky, but is often possible.

Just as one example, what if libraries had some ads somewhere? Then they could be provided for free to poor people but also gain some revenue. (And you offer premium membership with no adds for a yearly fee.)

If that would work (I don't know), then the question would become: should we charge people taxes so that poor people don't have to deal with ads at libraries? And I think the answer to that would be "no" -- if you want to help poor people see fewer ads you could pay money for that yourself without the tax system (e.g. the libraries could directly accept money and the more they get paid the fewer ads they show according to a formula).

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#57

Post by philwelch »

xenophanes wrote: post #39
philwelch wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, the libertarian stance is closer to "I have an inherent human right not to pay taxes that outweighs the public good of having things like libraries." There's some handwaving about voluntary charity, but if voluntary charity worked, no one would have invented public services to begin with, and the typical libertarian doesn't really care anyway.

I was trying to present the good side of libertarianism. The argument you present for libertarians is bad and borderline shameful (and, I think, not representative of the majority of libertarians. but certainly something some of them would say). But there much better arguments with similar conclusions. The main reason it's an awful position, in my view, is that it's premised on conflicts of interest and compromise --…

This is exactly the position of Ayn Rand, especially the part about not really caring if poor people get to have things like libraries or housing or food. To Ayn Rand, a "rational" homeless person would rather stave to death on the streets than accept the first crumb of unearned bread or a single night's sleep under an unearned roof. The only reason there's no conflict for Rand is because Rand doesn't recognize a legitimate interest in public goods, but only private goods gained through mutually beneficial transactions. To Rand, there's no rational interest in having a public library, so there is no rational conflict between the wealthy taxpayer and the impoverished library patron. Randroidism is one of the most brutal and shameful forms of libertarianism.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#58

Post by neilk »

skymt wrote: post #29
clintjhill wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police, Emergency and Fire departments are all "good" and "provide value" however they are not profitable. Nor do people run out to voluntarily pay for them. And there are a few cases where counties/municipalities created subscription like fees for these to the effect of somebody losing a house to a fire while the fire fighters stood to watch. This is the core of the problem with "no taxes" - principally it's good on…

Early fire departments were run by insurance companies to fight fires on their customers' properties. Those who couldn't afford insurance would be left to burn. http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/FireMarksAndPayments.asp

Ancient Rome had a fire brigade, run by Marcus Licinius Crassus, who you might remember as the villain from the 1960s Spartacus film. He and his crew would arrive at the scene of a fire to save your home from going up in flames...if you sold it to him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crassus

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#59

Post by xenophanes »

reinhardt wrote: post #51
xenophanes wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to have no idea what the libertarian position is. So I'll try to help: Just because something is super good and super useful -- and uncontroversially worthwhile -- like groceries, cars, delivery of packages, the production of beds, health care, retirement savings, and so on ... absolutely does not imply that the Government should be paying for it with tax money. Libertarians believe that Government is kind o…

3) for things that provide value but don't (necessarily) make money. And no, persuading people to voluntarily pay for these is not generally sustainable.

I knowingly, intentionally disagree with the public good argument. See:

http://fallibleideas.com/public-goods

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#60

Post by brianlouisw »

Even though I consider myself basically libertarian I'm often annoyed by the programs that seem to be first in line for budget cuts - libraries, parks, school music programs, and other basic things that don't actually cost very much.

This is by design, not by necessity - cuts to programs that people enjoy or support are more like to encourage voters to accept bond measures, tax increases, etc in order to avoid those cuts.

California spent $10 BILLION on prisons in 2011-2012. The country spent over $80B fighting drugs.

Funding libraries is a rounding error compared to the actual activities voters choose to allow their governments to engage in. If you want well funded libraries - stop voting for politicians whose only solutions involve more jails, more arrests, more wars, and more handouts.

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