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Amazon corporate workers plan walkout next week over return-to-office policies

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Re: Amazon corporate workers plan walkout next week over return-to-office policies

#221

Post by dcow »

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #145
ted_bunny wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes it gaslighting as opposed to garden variety bullshit?

By adding "morally" it enforces questioning one's own principles in support of the thing. Without "morally" it's dismissable nonsense (ie. bullshit). With "morally" it requires pulling at strands that make up our world-view. It's not necessarily a bad thing to question one's world-view on occasion, but causing that level of fundamental questioning, for a comment that would otherwise be easily dismissable, is gaslight…

Personally I think the repeated part of the gaslighting definition is really important (and the implication that the repetition is conducted abusively). Otherwise you'd argue that any dialog that causes one to question one's world-view is gaslighting, and that's simply not true under the colloquial use of the term.

If I make a statement that killing is not justifiable even in self defense, and that causes you, who believes that killing is justified as a measure of self defense, to question your worldview, I'm not gaslighting you into believing me, I'm simply sharing a viewpoint. If I repeatedly show you propaganda where innocent people regularly die because they are not allowed to defend themselves, and where people who do are punished, perhaps by being put in mental hospitals, etc. then I'm gaslighting you. Generally gaslighting refers to using lies and other statements that do not reflect reality, repeatedly, to manipulate someone into a false worldview.

I actually think it's dangerous to throw gaslighting as a term around so casually. Gaslighting, very specifically, means to repeatedly question someone's worldview, while ignoring their anecdotal experience, and that of general reality assuming they roughly align, in order to emotionally abuse them into submission or indoctrination. It's pretty serious and ugly. I know it's fun on HN to throw the term around, but Elon (regardless of how much you dislike him, and how many people follow him) arguing that WFH is morally wrong, is not an instance of Musk gaslighting the public at large. Not even really by a fun shot.

Re: Amazon corporate workers plan walkout next week over return-to-office policies

#222

Post by nyc_data_geek1 »

quicklime wrote: post #123
LapsangGuzzler wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pure speculation, but my guess is that he’s invested in the commercial real estate market and hoping for a turnaround. I don’t think it’s some profound or insane ideology he has, I think he’s just trying to prop up CRE like he does with crypto. He’s famous for buying distressed commercial properties and for gaslighting, it just makes sense and the whole moral argument was a great way to get people talking about it.

But he's not the only business leader using heavy-handed techniques to get workers back in the office. I think it's likely that he genuinely believes that working from the office is better - he's not playing 4d chess. The morality argument is just him rationalizing what he already believes. This isn't the "first principles" thinking that he demands from others.

He probably has money in commercial real estate, like Jamie Dimon and so many others.

Re: Amazon corporate workers plan walkout next week over return-to-office policies

#223

Post by somethoughts »

rover0 wrote: post #210
somethoughts wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My two cents on this is that he is saying "working from home is morally wrong" - for his companies ... but he left out the for his companies part. He owns a car company and a space ship company - both of which have assembly lines with tons of workers. A majority of his employees will need to be working in a factory or with physical equipment/prototypes. Therefore they must be at the office or at the plant. In that en…

Why stop here? Some workers have shifts, some have to work outside in the rain. It's only fair that everyone works outside in the rain in shifts?

I would say usually this is deftly handled at other tech companies (MSFT, AAPL, Netflix, Facebook, Google) by outsourcing all meal preparation, cleaning services, security, low level IT, contract manufacturing to other companies. That way there is not a separate class within the same company. This works most of the time to not create a press $*$!storm.

The challenge for Elon (and Bezos/Jassy) is that his two of his companies rely on physical labor and can't outsource the physical part but still need tech talent that could otherwise WFH.

I don't envy him or Bezos/Jassy...

If you don't say stuff like this you have folks even on the tech side who will protest (i.e. TBray of AWS VP).

"I quit in dismay at Amazon firing whistleblowers who were making noise about warehouse employees frightened of COVID-19," he wrote.

[1] https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-engineer-resigned-tre...

Re: Amazon corporate workers plan walkout next week over return-to-office policies

#224

Post by somethoughts »

joeblubaugh wrote: post #205
ethbr0 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Information workers and factory workers are different. Should they be, in terms of work-life balance?

The answer is to improve the lot of factory workers, not worsen that of the others.

That would cost Elon money though...

Re: Amazon corporate workers plan walkout next week over return-to-office policies

#225

Post by sacnoradhq »

klipklop wrote: post #199

The amount of class warfare here is hilarious. Will you really parrot elite coined phrases like “laptop class?” What even is the laptop class? It’s a meaningless term created so it’s easier to dehumanize a group of people that have a massive salary range. There are WFH making $50k. They are not all vest and resters. Do we really need to make the conversation be about the upper middle class being “lazy” and completely…

Writers gonna artist. I wouldn't take it as anything but a colorful metaphor.

The strata who should be rightfully derided are the chauffeured-and-business-jet-class who have an embarrassingly-low tax rate while concentrating and keeping vast amounts of profits. Nearly 60% of the post-pandemic inflation was due to the profit price spiral. The "wage spiral" is a delusion and layoffs aren't actually necessary. They're business theater belying boosting corporate profits to keep up with the proverbial Jones' in other stocks.

Re: Amazon corporate workers plan walkout next week over return-to-office policies

#226

Post by whimsicalism »

sacnoradhq wrote: post #225
klipklop wrote: post #199

The amount of class warfare here is hilarious. Will you really parrot elite coined phrases like “laptop class?” What even is the laptop class? It’s a meaningless term created so it’s easier to dehumanize a group of people that have a massive salary range. There are WFH making $50k. They are not all vest and resters. Do we really need to make the conversation be about the upper middle class being “lazy” and completely…

Writers gonna artist. I wouldn't take it as anything but a colorful metaphor. The strata who should be rightfully derided are the chauffeured-and-business-jet-class who have an embarrassingly-low tax rate while concentrating and keeping vast amounts of profits. Nearly 60% of the post-pandemic inflation was due to the profit price spiral. The "wage spiral" is a delusion and layoffs aren't actually necessary. They're b…

> I wouldn't take it as anything but a colorful metaphor.

"Laptop class" is more than a colorful metaphor, it implies a set of values by the speaker.

Re: Amazon corporate workers plan walkout next week over return-to-office policies

#227

Post by george-in-sd »

neom wrote: post #13

I still think out of all the...unique... things Elon has said... work from home is morally wrong has to take the cake. I try to spend time looking at things as radically as I can. I think it's helpful to accept folks views as widely as possible, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around work from home being morally wrong. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5OHFt8QyiU I was on a bicycle ride listening to this intervie…

Upper class is fighting for a perk that the working class will never have. Maybe not morally wrong but working class is treated pretty badly in a place like SF.

Re: Amazon corporate workers plan walkout next week over return-to-office policies

#228

Post by pinkmuffinere »

sakopov wrote: post #81
gregwebs wrote: post #50

During the pandemic I had an initial meeting with a hiring manager at Amazon that didn’t care that I was multiple time zones away from her office. Even though the official policy was actually return to office when pandemic conditions change. Luckily I didn’t want to go through their interview process- I’m guessing I would have gotten axed in the layoffs for being newer on the team and not being able to come to the of…

I have a friend who was hired in 2019, moved to a city with Amazon office and then moved back in 2021 while keeping his job. He still works at Amazon and is fully remote indefinitely. From what he had told me, this is only impacting those who work within commuting distance of an Amazon office. Those who were hired as remote employees or relocated during pandemic years were pretty much grandfathered into fully remote…

This may be the case for your friend’s team, but certainly not everyone. I was hired during the pandemic and was fully remote for 1.5 years, but am now expected to be in office Tuesday-Thursday. If my contact had slightly different wording I believe my situation would be different.

Re: Amazon corporate workers plan walkout next week over return-to-office policies

#229

Post by davidw »

neom wrote: post #13

I still think out of all the...unique... things Elon has said... work from home is morally wrong has to take the cake. I try to spend time looking at things as radically as I can. I think it's helpful to accept folks views as widely as possible, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around work from home being morally wrong. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5OHFt8QyiU I was on a bicycle ride listening to this intervie…

I think all the casting doubt about some recent mass shooter being a nazi has a viable claim in terms of cake taking.

I used to think he was eccentric but did some cool stuff too.

I now have a very negative opinion of him as a person.

Re: Amazon corporate workers plan walkout next week over return-to-office policies

#230

Post by shuckles »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #82
krainboltgreene wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of sentiment is both in tech and also in every other field that has or could have unionization, and it's never true.

You tell that to car manufacturers in Detroit.

American automobile manufacturers lost to European and Japanese carmakers, both of whom have heavily unionized workforces.
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