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Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

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Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#281
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 18 hours a day is likely a pretty big exaggeration Nope, not at all. Some days it was 20 (rarely). When you have to do the job of 5 engineers the only path is to be extremely well organized, driven and be willing to put in the time. > I'd actually say that's making my point > probably not too stressful tho I guess I didn't make it clear enough. I used farm work as one of the simplest and oldest types of work in his…

Martin, I really enjoy your posts & feel compelled to respond. I think the pushback is primarily on process, not results. Like, you do these 18 hour stints & get the millions & then land up, like you say, in the hospital. Or you could, you know, not put in 18 hours & not have millions & stay out of the hospital. There is that option too. In the midwest where I live, me & my neighbors aren't exactly phoning it in. We…

Thanks, I appreciate your comment.

Oddly enough, the 18 hour days didn't send me to the hospital. I did have weird thoughts during that time, like "This is like being in prison".

I did what I had to do. Part of it is about ethics and responsibility. In this case, to my family.

My wife had just graduated as a doctor. We had enough money to set-up her practice free and clear and enough backup left over for her to take 6 to 10 months to get up to speed.

I also had this idea to start a technology company. This would burn through the cash we had --all of it-- and likely require more.

So, one nice Sunday morning, over coffee, we had a relaxed discussion about the options ahead. A third option was to buy a bunch of homes (this was over twenty years ago), rent them out and make money on appreciation, etc.

Well, my wife said she wanted to go work for various clinics and get experience before setting up her own practice (twenty years later, she is happy where she landed). She also thought I would not be happy being a landlord. I'm just not built that way. I have a drive to create and learn, not fix plumbing. She was right. So, she said, just go ahead and do the startup.

I stressed that a hardware startup would absolutely burn through 100% of our savings an likely require more. To her credit, she has always trusted me and my hairbrained ideas. So, off we went head-first into that adventure.

That was a "Failure is not an option" scenario. I could not fail her and my kids. We didn't have enough money to hire mechanical and software guys to take some of the load. So, I had to be everything. Electronics, embedded, FPGA, firmware, layout, mechanical, manufacturing, desktop software and more. Hence the 18 hour days.

That is not a way to live. I have only done that once in my life. Probably never again. Yet --and this is also something a lot of people do not understand-- the motivation was NEVER money or getting rich. Not even close. I can't remember ever thinking about that. Sure, I wanted to make money. It would be dumb not to. Yet, money can't motivate someone to work like that. No, there has to be passion to achieve something difficult and a sense of responsibility to others. That could be investors or your own family. In my case it was the latter.

I did what I had to do in order to ensure success.

The hospital visits came much later. Around 2008, when the economy collapsed, and the business I worked so hard to build to a nice company of twenty employees collapsed right in front of my eyes because the music stopped and there were no chairs to sit on. We had millions of dollars in orders cancelled. We had an acquisition offer in the multiple tens of millions of dollars on the table (from a company most would recognize) for technology I developed. And all of it, 100% came to a grinding halt when the economy took a shit. That's what put me in the hospital the first time. Just stress and dehydration after I decided to take a brake and go rowing.

That was a very dark period. The only think that kept me together was coming home to my kids and wife. I could have panic attacks driving back home and they would evaporate instantly when I opened the door.

Black swan event? Yeah, I'd say so. I guess. Don't know.

Two years later I ended-up in the hospital again after exhibiting at our last tradeshow before I had to shutdown the company. The hope of closing a nice deal at the show (one that would keep us alive) evaporated. I went to dinner with a friend. At the end of that I didn't feel good at all. I asked him to just drive me to the hospital. Again, it was just stress and dehydration.

As all of that unfolded, again, due to a sense of responsibility and not wanting to give-up, we took out a substantial second mortgage on our home to be able to pay our employees (people were losing their jobs right and left back then) and have a shot at keeping the company going. We had to live with that decision for years to come. These are some of the reasons for which, when I read some of the comments people post about business, I just don't react well. They are ignorant comments that come from a complete lack of understanding. Business and entrepreneurship are hard. Few can understand this without a front row seat and a thousand pounds of responsibility on their shoulders.

As tragic as that was, after taking a year to get my head back on straight I wrote a few educational apps for kids for iOS and dabbled in some consulting. Oddly enough, some of the technology I had developed for that business landed me a really nice contract in aerospace. I launched a product development/technology consulting business from there. A few years later, just before the pandemic, I decided to launch yet another startup to help develop innovative technologies for indoor farming.

I guess I just can't help myself. That said, yes, the perspective is very different. And yes, I am and have always been a family guy. Always first. No matter how busy I might be. In fact, they tell me they learn more from me than from school (well, it's California...you know).

I am still doing difficult work, both for my own efforts and consulting clients, which is what drives me, yet, there are self-imposed limits borne from experience. The 18 hour days are not even remotely part of my reality. That said, I know I have the mental toughness to be able to endure such a thing, should it ever be necessary for whatever reason.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#282

This isn't surprising. Amazon said that they were going to support remote work indefinitely and then changed their minds even though people have moved away from the main offices. Then they pull every back in the midst of massive layoffs and it really comes across as intimidation and manipulation. It doesn't matter if that's what it is - it's very very easy to perceive it that way. From what I've seen, older generatio…

Does indefinitely not mean something like no timeline or deadline, but subject to change It doesn’t seem like a change of mind if the operative word is indeed “indefinitely”.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#283

This isn't surprising. Amazon said that they were going to support remote work indefinitely and then changed their minds even though people have moved away from the main offices. Then they pull every back in the midst of massive layoffs and it really comes across as intimidation and manipulation. It doesn't matter if that's what it is - it's very very easy to perceive it that way. From what I've seen, older generatio…

Does indefinitely not mean something like no timeline or deadline, but subject to change It doesn’t seem like a change of mind if the operative word is indeed “indefinitely”.

Yes but indefinitely also does not mean 1 year generally

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's way too soon to draw conclusions.

Given people were originally predicting collapse within days, how long do you need to draw conclusions?

How do you know the business will not collapse? Revenue internally is down 40% and importantly the activity is a cesspool, wouldn't reckon that's the company just chugging along

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So people who want to work in the office are entitled to keep their coworkers who dont want to be stuck there?

This is an extraordinary and disingenuous leap, and it doesn't even merit responding to as a proxy for your willingness to engage with others, but to make the superficially obvious point more crystal clear: the existence of folks who prefer the communal and social aspects of work in a common location is not up for debate, and no, their preference on this subject does not imply that they uniformly think everyone shoul…

Disagree. The comment addresses the sentiment fairly

> People want to work in the office with other people. If they go and end up working alone because their team is remote, then there is no point.

The author would crave for others to be present to satisfy their whim of not only wanting to go to work, but also dragging others reluctantly there. It's worthy of a walkout

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think many of the commenters here assume that at all. It is abundantly clear that working in-office is not threatened - it would be like have been worrying that men would be disenfranchised by women's suffrage. Assuming that in-office work did somehow disappear entirely, then there would also always be the option for WeWork or similar. This is not a zero-sum game. It is possible for everyone to get what they…

> It is possible for everyone to get what they want. At overall software-industry level? Yes. At individual company level? It is much better to have uniform policies for the entire org. Either be completely remote, or completely in-office, or if you want hybrid then mandate the days when everyone must be in office.

> It is much better to have uniform policies for the entire or

Why? There are ample examples than not where this is not applied. Significantly compensation

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#287
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: I didn't need any of that.

Counter-study to your counterpoint (better than sharing random anecdotes): https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03044... From the abstract: Findings show that early career artists have the least social capital, established artists have the most, and late career artists begin to lose social capital unless they actively maintain it.

What about the corollary logical leap that is social capital is a measure or predictor of success at the workplace.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as somebody who was there when Tech Solidarity came through town after the Trump election, I saw you give a presentation that focused more on collecting Democratic party donations and fighting Trump than on any actual labor organization. You had people drive in hours from out of town (this was deep purple Texas, Houston), and you wasted their time rattling a can for a party that sucks. Worse, you never came…

I'm sorry that event was a disappointment. I had a terrific speaker lined up who called to cancel as I was walking to the venue. She was an experienced labor organizer and I would have loved to hear what she had to say. But like you, it turned out I came a long way for nothing.

Really love your writing man, keep up the great work.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are so many people that stand to lose if a fully remote work force came to pass. Building management, HR, middle managers, property investors, they're the ones you're hearing I'd guess. Pure software dev jobs are very easy to do remotely, it's not like we spend all day talking to people any way.

> middle managers, If you think middle managers stand to lose due to remote work, you have no clue why middle managers exist in the first place. Remote work increases the importance of that role, in fact. > Pure software dev jobs are very easy to do remotely Have you actually done meaningful software development? For a specific example - designing a complex system is definitely hard to do remotely. Put 3-4 key people…

> Have you actually done meaningful software development? For a specific example - designing a complex system is definitely hard to do remotely.

Have you actually done meaningful software development? I'm sorry for the tone, it's just that you're presenting a completely unqualified argument based on your own personal experience and then claiming OP hasn't done software development.

I do hobby projects that delve into some complex low level techniques (because my day job is kind of boring tech and this scratches that itch for me). I've stumbled across a global community, meaning none of us have ever met face to face, and have had the best collaboration I've ever had with any other developers. It's especially better than the collaboration I get with my coworkers, who are all just doing their job with varying levels of enthusiasm (which is as it should be, it's just a job after all).

The idea that you need a whiteboard and to see somebody's face to effectively collaborate is an antiquated ideology in the present day. We have: Zoom, Discord, Github, Figma, Slack, Teams, etc etc. These all allow effective collaboration with other people without ever needing to see their face.

> Every single time, the feedback was that whiteboard sessions were awesome and helped move the project forward significantly.

Great. And you can just as easily screen share over Zoom and draw on a tablet. There is no magical ability that a whiteboard and in person meetings have over meeting virtually.

And all this to say, in person sessions can be great and collaborative too! But your conjecture:

> For a specific example - designing a complex system is definitely hard to do remotely. Put 3-4 key people in that project in front of a whiteboard and you will get a much better outcome.

Is not a tautology.

Put 3-4 key people in that project in front of a whiteboard, and you may get a better outcome. The world we live in does not operate in absolutes, and the more I learn the more I realize that being dogmatic about any approaches or opinions is usually dumb. There's always an exception to the rule, and, in fact, there's usually several exceptions to "the rule".

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#290
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 18 hours a day is likely a pretty big exaggeration Nope, not at all. Some days it was 20 (rarely). When you have to do the job of 5 engineers the only path is to be extremely well organized, driven and be willing to put in the time. > I'd actually say that's making my point > probably not too stressful tho I guess I didn't make it clear enough. I used farm work as one of the simplest and oldest types of work in his…

Martin, I really enjoy your posts & feel compelled to respond. I think the pushback is primarily on process, not results. Like, you do these 18 hour stints & get the millions & then land up, like you say, in the hospital. Or you could, you know, not put in 18 hours & not have millions & stay out of the hospital. There is that option too. In the midwest where I live, me & my neighbors aren't exactly phoning it in. We…

> I think what you are seeing in the millennials is the same sort of dialing back on ambition, not some passionate embrace of marxism. People are just tired. Cut them some slack.

I felt I had to reply to this separately. First of all, I appreciate the pushback and criticism of my approach. No problem at all. I prefer to engage in conversation with people who can teach me something or check my position. That's the only way to learn. All too often, online, people prefer to immediately move to tossing fecal matter instead of attempting to understand.

Here's the way I look at it. Keep in mind that this isn't necessarily complete.

China. I don't hate them. I hate some of the things they do. Yet, am in awe of the fact that they have worked hard for the last 50 years or so --one foot in front of the other-- to elevate their people and nation from an agrarian society to the world's second largest economy, a technological leader and the factory for the world.

They work hard. Very hard. I have done business in China. The entrepreneurial culture and desire to get work done is beyond description.

I'll give you a simple example. Last year, just before Chinese new year, I needed to have some custom aluminum extrusions made for a mid-size project. I contacted nearly 90 aluminum extruders across the US. Out of those, only about ten responded. From there only half sent a quote. All quotes were insane. The quotes took WEEKS to get.

Every single one of them put me through an interrogation process trying to understand if we were worth their while. Anyone in manufacturing knows exactly what I am talking about. The first question you get is something like "How many are going to make per year?". On top of that, people were quoting 35 to 50+ week lead times and some even asked that I change the design because they didn't have a machine that could handle it.

Enter China. I sent for quotes from about half a dozen companies. I had quotes from more companies than I contacted the very next day and a few more a couple of days later. When they didn't have a machine to handle our requirements, they simply referred the project to a competitor as a courtesy.

After a couple of emails back and forth, I wanted a factory tour before making a decision. This young lady and her coworkers gave me a full factory tour over zoom the day Chinese new year started. The place was empty. Imagine five buildings the size of a typical Home Depot. They insisted on showing me everything.

That day, I gave them the job. It wasn't a large contract. No promises of future work at all. Nobody asked me how many more or how many per year we would make. Nope. They just wanted to get the job done. And they did a great job, on time and on budget.

Getting back to the subject of millennials dialing back ambition, or not wanting to work hard. Well, that's OK. Sure. Yet, they have to understand the world isn't going to wait for them while they take a vacation. Like it or not, business is war. And to win that war people are going to have to go up against those who are willing to work smarter and harder than others.

And so, I see what our universities and educational system is doing, elevating Marxism and all the surrounding horseshit (and it is 100% horseshit proven to destroy societies) and it pains me greatly. You cannot build a future on that crap. You just cannot. We have somehow produced millions of people who really don't have a straight view of history and an even worse view of what is going on past their little world, much less thousands of miles away. They need to toughen-up and put some weight on their shoulders or the consequences will be dire.

One could very well argue we are past a point of no return. I don't know. What I do know is that this is not a formula for success. Our politicians are fighting wars for power by dividing people on a scale between dumb and dumber. They don't care, they are all isolated from reality. That's the case for the political species anywhere in the world. We should have transformed this society into one of the most rabid entrepreneurial environments in the world. Instead, we are focusing on which bathroom we should go to, how many millions of unemployed people to let walk through the border, when it is OK to kill a baby and how brilliant Karl Marx must have been --given that he built such prosperity for so many.

This is a "hold my beer" moment where serious work needs to be done. Either people toughen-up or they will after the pain and suffering that is sure to come.

Final thought. AI.

Yeah, well. Need I go there? Millennials will have to content with what's coming on that front one way or the other. Once again, reality has a nasty way to cut through the crap very quickly. What is interesting is that it is actually millennials who are going to be inflicting AI onto less-prepared millennials. That will be something to watch.

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