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SimCity 4 was released 20 years ago

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Re: SimCity 4 was released 20 years ago

#211
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The others help your point but Cities Skylines is memed because it's graphics over substance as it's basically a city painting game with shallow mechanics that most people use to make little city dioramas which is still fun but not deep gameplay.

The transportation mechanics in Skylines are quite complex and fun. The player can trace individual trips, and some of them matter quite a lot: the businesses need to get and ship their raw materials and finished goods, and the shops need customers. The budget mechanics are a joke, before long the player has practically endless money.

I'm afraid I must disagree here. I enjoy C:S. But its mechanics are shallow compared to many other titles.

One rather unknown point that, while not directly related, highlights this is how in C:S your income depends on your current budget. I.e. you magically receive less income if you have 10 million in the bank, and receive more if you're in debt. That point alone makes objectively comparing and strategizing unnecessarily hard, and it feels like the game really does not want you to work with numbers instead of paint buckets.

Re: SimCity 4 was released 20 years ago

#212

Anyone who has nostalgia for SimCity should definitely give a listen to its amazing soundtrack: https://youtu.be/PSv37HwwojU Jerry Martin, the composer for most of The Sims franchise, is a legend. The music is like vaporwave before vaporwave.

Along the same lines, the best thing to come out of Sim City 2013 is Chris Tilton's orchestral soundtrack. It uses musical tropes from 50s/60s Hollywood futurism and adds some modern atmosphere to it. Somehow the composer manages to keep the 'camp' of old movie soundtracks without it being cheesy. As with any good OST, music changes with the context. New skyscrapers will trigger sweeping full pit orchestra music. There are nighttime mixes for each song that lean into distant acoustic bursts. Also I love that when building hospitals, the music incorporates rattling pill bottles, jingling metal instruments, and clanging beakers. So fun!

Re: SimCity 4 was released 20 years ago

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought 3000 was the best showing, though perhaps that's looking at it back later when performance is not as much of a concern. It felt like an upgraded SimCity 2000, rather than a big change in game mechanics that 4 was.

3000 was just a modernised and polished expansion of 2000. Maxis had plans to do a successor to 2k that was fully 3D but they kept hitting frustrations and setbacks. So they just stuck to what they knew and made a faithful successor.

> Maxis had plans to do a successor to 2k that was fully 3D but they kept hitting frustrations and setbacks.

Graphics hardware at the time wouldn't be able to handle a city builder with the depth and scale of SimCity 2000.

Heck, it wouldn't have been able to handle a 3D version of the original SimCity unless the draw distance was limited to like 300 feet.

For proof, check out SimCopter. I can't imagine trying to play a city builder with those graphics.

Re: SimCity 4 was released 20 years ago

#214
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that's not how games work - they don't run "at minimum capabilities" and they run their game loop constantly, rendering graphics. This means that it will almost certanly saturate at least M1s GPU and probably at least one of P cores. At that stage, even the M1 starts drawing a lot of power which needs disspiation. Also Civ 6s target GPU is much faster than any of the M1s (which, despite the marketing, are sti…

> they run their game loop constantly, rendering graphics Eh? Civ 6 is a turn-based game with really very little in the way of animation. It's not a first person shooter rendering whole screens at 30fps. Even leaving M1 aside, on my PC with a capable graphics card Civ 6 always thrashed the CPU a ton. I know there's a lot going on under the hood but I always suspected it was nowhere near as efficient as it could be.

Civ 6 graphics rendering is just really really poorly optimized. It's comparable to Flight Simulator in how hard it pushes my system.

Re: SimCity 4 was released 20 years ago

#215
post #5

I prefer SimCity 2000. I feel like it hit a pretty good sweet spot between simulation and fun (which is to say, not even a vague gesturing at anything remotely realistic). Realistic simulation in games is almost universally less fun than simple, predictable game logic. Probably the most extreme example of this is chess: way more enjoyable than real warfare. Back on topic though. My beef with SimCity 4 is that it adde…

We already have OpenTTD and OpenRCT. Maybe someone somewhere is creating an C++ remake of our favourite isometric city simulator, with multiplayer support!

I've often dreamed of making a city builder MMO.

But to do it right, I'd want it to be the scale of a moderately large nation like the USA. You'd buy plots of land one square mile as you expand. The game world would be seeded with a major highway and railroad system that you could not remove, just add connections to.

I'd want traffic to be simulated in the same depth as Cities: Skylines, and have freight have to move over a thousand miles to reach destinations.

But most importantly, I'd want the entire game world to be seamless. You should be able to pan from one side of the country to the other.

But such an ambitious game would require immense processing power. I don't know how I would scale it.

Re: SimCity 4 was released 20 years ago

#216
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "best (according to me)" games are still 2D or 2.5D: Roguelikes Dwarf Fortress Factorio EU4 My theory is that deep gameplay and AAA 3D graphics are mutually exclusive because deep gameplay fundamentally requires "tile grids" of some kind, which don't lend themselves to AAA 3D graphics. (Diablo 1 and 2 kind of railed against this by taking the approach, "Hey, what if we took a tile-based roguelike and rendered it…

Depends on the genre. I think few people can seriously say Red Dead Redemption 2 doesn't have deep gameplay, and it is beautiful.

I tried RDR2 for an hour but I was completely bored the whole time. It felt like I was watching a movie that occasionally made me hit some buttons. Did not feel like a game to me at all.

Re: SimCity 4 was released 20 years ago

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with city building games is that they are far too gamified. In reality construction takes years, even decades for many infrastructure projects. Because of that, the challenge of solving the problems of 25 years in the future is not well represented in many such games.

Try Workers & Resources, it's more about managing a whole supply chain and being self sufficient than spending money. You can tackle it at different levels but at the most complex you're making the cement then trucking it to the building site.

Yes, but what about the time involved, does it simulate the construction taking 15 years.

Re: SimCity 4 was released 20 years ago

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cities Skylines just turns into "transportation mode simulator" for me. Still fun, but it is not the same thing.

What’s worse is that CS is a transport simulator that’s heavily biased towards cars; to the point where every new game starts off with a giant unsightly freeway in the middle of your town. I hope CS2 is more agnostic on transport mode. It would be nice to be able to create genuinely car-free cities in the game.

It's possible to make a car-free city in CS. It just can't start as one.

Re: SimCity 4 was released 20 years ago

#219
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big disagree, I think that sounds super fun. Remember there's a significant enough number of people that play long haul truck simulators.

Yeah. I think people saying more realistic interactions would not be fun or popular are lacking in imagination. The real problem with those games is the divorce from reality of bulldozing. Imagine bulldozing is as expensive, complicated, and despised as in real life. Then imagine having to fight against infrastructure cost overruns. You play a city building game, and you don't have access to roads (cars haven't been…

I saw someone playing that way, they could ONLY bulldoze "city services" like roads (so they could replace a road with one with more lanes that fit in the same space, or one with bike/tram lanes) but they could NOT bulldoze zoned properties, and tried their best not to remove even things like police stations, etc.

I think they had a rule saying they could rezone or bulldoze a building that was abandoned; but that of course led to accusations of intentionally forcing buildings to be abandoned (which is a real thing that happens).

Re: SimCity 4 was released 20 years ago

#220
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of these city games need to simulate bureaucracy. For example, if trying to demolish an apartment, you need to solicit 400 approvals and gain local support before doing so. Or to build to a railway you need to buy out all of the land and organize environmental studies for every square foot of it before laying track.

I'd rather have a city builder that doesn't involve starting a utopia from scratch, I want to show up to an existing rural area and industrialize it, convert an unwalkable nightmare dominated by highways into a medium density sprawl, etc.

Most of them have some form of "scenarios" to play which are somewhat like that, but not exactly.
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