Why do recipe writers lie about how long it takes to caramelize onions? (2012) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do recipe writers lie about how long it takes to caramelize onions? (2012)

#611

Post by downut » Tue, May 23, 2023, 2:52 PM UTC

sanitycheck wrote: post #555

astura wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please, just stop! This elitism around caramelized onions is just absurd. I've caramelized onions on the shittiest of shitty electric stoves using the cheapest of cheap pans Walmart sells. It's not difficult and doesn't take any special equipment or skills - just time. Most people don't want that though most of the time. In 99.9% of applications fully caramelized onions simply aren't nearly as pleasant as onions t…

Yeah, same here - I've used the cheapest pans it was possible to buy when I was a student, on the worst ceramic stove it was viable for my university accommodation to provide. For something like this where precise responsive heat control is unnecessary anything is OK. (Making actual caramel, OTOH, that's far easier on gas or induction.)

Lord gawd almighty.

Let me tell you a story. If you go off road just about anywhere in Mexico that's dry enough and interesting enough, and it's possible to go slow enough to have enough clearance, you will find cheap 2WD rear drive cars that are already there. I have seen some amazing accomplishments from these vehicles that almost no US driver would dream of taking off road. Still, I wouldn't trade my 23 yo lifted 4wd truck for them at all. Over time, I'm going to come out ahead, there's simple no dispute.

I don't doubt that you could caramelize onions on the shittiest stoves possible, probably you could do it, with enough patience and care, with a magnifying glass on a hot summer day. But the OP was emphasizing that it's really no big deal, you don't even have to pay attention. I at least have great equipment, but I've stayed in dozens of AirBnBs that didn't have great equipment, same with friends and family. Got to pay attention then.

The idea that there is no difference is completely ridiculous.

Re: Why do recipe writers lie about how long it takes to caramelize onions? (2012)

#612

Post by kqr » Tue, May 23, 2023, 2:52 PM UTC

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #586

downut wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah that works on my Viking stove with my competent pans, and is basically how I do it, but people with shitty stoves, i.e. the majority, have burners with hot spots and/or mismatched pan widths or even too thin pan bottoms. I suspect that's where the constant stirring/too short time business might originate. I never realized how widespread this was until I brought dishes to group meals (as in Slow Food) and people…

Pretty much any induction stove is going to have less hot spots than a Viking, at a fraction of the price. Pan quality is still going to matter. But you don't need $50k in kitchen gadgets to properly caramelize onions...

Really? Our induction stove very clearly has two concentric circles of different radii that get hot, and nothing else. If you use cast iron and vary the power slowly you won't notice, but it's very obvious with thinner pots and when you control heat quickly (which is a delight to be able to do in the first place -- yay induction.)

Re: Why do recipe writers lie about how long it takes to caramelize onions? (2012)

#613

Post by mtizim » Tue, May 23, 2023, 2:55 PM UTC

sanitycheck wrote: post #421

I've had this conversation with people many times, a consequence is that some of them have no idea what caramelised onions actually are - they think it's the state you get to after 10 mins. Thinly slice 10 onions, dump them in a big pot with some oil on a medium heat for 10-15 minutes stirring frequently. Then turn the heat down to low and cook for a further 45-60 mins, check on it and stir every 10 mins or so. When…

You can really speed up the process by adding water at the beginning and essentially steaming the onions.

https://youtu.be/rzL07v6w8AA?t=207

Re: Why do recipe writers lie about how long it takes to caramelize onions? (2012)

#614

Post by Earw0rm » Tue, May 23, 2023, 2:56 PM UTC

bruckie wrote: post #110

Recipe writers are still lying about cooking time in 2023. I signed up for a Hello Fresh promo recently to get some new meal ideas, and it's making me feel like the slowest cook on the planet. I reliably exceed their stated prep and cooking times by 100-200%. Tonight's "40 minute" recipe took about 70 minutes, and that was with a family member helping out with some of the prep and cooking. I wonder if they collect an…

Ditto "Jamie's 30 minute meals".

Something like this:

https://www.jamieoliver.com/recipes/pasta-recipes/summer-veg...

The last step - 14 - is in fact two steps of (unspecified, but looks like 5-10), and 8 minutes cooking time. Which means you've about 15 minutes to do the other 13 steps. Maybe theoretically possible if you've kitchen-professional chopping speed and know exactly what you're doing, but allowing for thinking time? Hell no.

And let's not talk about the amount of shopping time to get the 15 required ingredients. Most of which are fresh so you're not going to have them kicking around in a cupboard.

Re: Why do recipe writers lie about how long it takes to caramelize onions? (2012)

#615

Post by jerf » Tue, May 23, 2023, 2:56 PM UTC

giraffe_lady wrote: post #566

ip26 wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How long did it take you to get that fast? Any training, or just on the job?

I'm not the person you asked but I also am a very fast home cook due to professional cooking background. The job is the training in that kind of work. No one comes out of culinary school particularly fast and even most serious cooks don't go anyway. Cooks change restaurant often and every restaurant is a completely different set of foods and techniques. Training may teach you how to do something but doing it for hour…

Even just some deliberative practice for a home cook can make a big difference. I am absolutely, positively not in the professional league. I'd be drummed out of any professional kitchen in the first five minutes. But I'm also way faster, better, more able to recover and improvise than I was twenty years ago, because I deliberately tried to stretch my skills a bit. Not a lot. Just a bit every so often. Over 20+ years it adds up.

Re: Why do recipe writers lie about how long it takes to caramelize onions? (2012)

#616

Post by jcranmer » Tue, May 23, 2023, 3:01 PM UTC

salawat wrote: post #385

inferiorhuman wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CIA has a huge blind spot for non-European food. Check out the Chinese Cooking Demystified youtube channel. They did a video on the CIA's laughably bad mapo tofu recipe. It was bad enough that simply following the instructions got their neighbors up in arms.

...The world, for just a moment, was a far more interesting place. Then the realization that no, the Central Intelligence Agency does not have a crack division of crypto-culinary experts in the midst of a cold war, attempting to thwart or coordinate psyops in which they sabotage other nations morale through spreading deliberate, yet subtly disasterous cooking advice.

I imagined it as them needing to have experienced chefs on hand to teach ethnic cuisine skills, so that deep-cover spies wouldn't be unmasked by their inability to make the local cuisine.

Re: Why do recipe writers lie about how long it takes to caramelize onions? (2012)

#617

Post by mhb » Tue, May 23, 2023, 3:02 PM UTC

com2kid wrote: post #234

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the same experience with Marley Spoon. I always make sure I prepare everything in advance but the actual recipe wants you to do some of the cutting and dicing while stuff is already cooking and they often have impossible timing. For example, they will have you fry the meat for 2-3 minutes, clean and chop a boatload of vegetables and add them after those 2-3 minutes pass. Sometimes they even do this during a st…

Cutting board covers, a rubber mat that lays on top of your cutting board, cut all your meats first, toss it in the sink, swap knives, cut all your veggies. Saves 5 minutes or so of prep time, well worth it IMHO. Also you can just throw it in the dishwasher and not worry about scrubbing a wood cutting board and possibly damaging it with moisture.

Maybe a dumb question, but this sounds useful so I searched for "cutting board cover" and didn't get the expected 10 pages of results. Is this something you made for yourself? Does the knife cut it and little bits of cutting board cover end up in the food?

Re: Why do recipe writers lie about how long it takes to caramelize onions? (2012)

#618

Post by giraffe_lady » Tue, May 23, 2023, 3:05 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #615

giraffe_lady wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not the person you asked but I also am a very fast home cook due to professional cooking background. The job is the training in that kind of work. No one comes out of culinary school particularly fast and even most serious cooks don't go anyway. Cooks change restaurant often and every restaurant is a completely different set of foods and techniques. Training may teach you how to do something but doing it for hour…

Even just some deliberative practice for a home cook can make a big difference. I am absolutely, positively not in the professional league. I'd be drummed out of any professional kitchen in the first five minutes. But I'm also way faster, better, more able to recover and improvise than I was twenty years ago, because I deliberately tried to stretch my skills a bit. Not a lot. Just a bit every so often. Over 20+ years…

Yes for sure. And professional cooks are focused on different things too, not all of their skills are normally applicable in home cooking. The two best cooks I know (both better than me in terms of consistently delicious food) are as you describe: older people who have just been paying attention and caring about it for a long time.

Re: Why do recipe writers lie about how long it takes to caramelize onions? (2012)

#619

Post by conductr » Tue, May 23, 2023, 3:08 PM UTC

giraffe_lady wrote: post #570

conductr wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mirrors my experience. Prep work is the most underestimated part. I think they start with everything out on the counter and unpackaged and with necessary tooling lined up and ready. But those things take time. For me, something like mincing garlic cloves takes a solid 5-10 minutes alone and is one of the things that consistently stands out as they must have started with minced garlic to get to this time estimate.

Nah that's a perfect example of how experience & technique can speed things up dramatically. Here watch ole JP do it in about 90 seconds even while slowing down to explain it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y5h1pDHhzs

That’s not what an average home cook can do regarding knife skills. These services and recipes should be written for their audiences which are likely typical home chefs that don’t handle knifes that well. I’ve been cooking 40 years and have certainly tried to use a knife that way and it always feels unsafe to me. Also, typically requires a very sharp set of knifes which I do keep but I don’t think the average house does.

Re: Why do recipe writers lie about how long it takes to caramelize onions? (2012)

#620

Post by DoughnutHole » Tue, May 23, 2023, 3:17 PM UTC

grumple wrote: post #499

pkilgore wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just FYI you can easily cook a room temp chicken breast or thigh (or lots of them) 4 minutes a side directly below a broiler on a broiler pan, letting them rest covered for 5 afterwards. Add a minute for the genetic freak 2+ inch thick ones. You will need to pat the moisture off them first and brush with oil.

You may have changed the color of the meat and killed off the bacteria to make it safe to eat, but you didn't make good chicken. It takes time and lower heat to cook through, create good flavor, and get good texture. Sure you can put any food in an incinerator for 2 minutes and it's "cooked", but not really.

> It takes time and lower heat to cook through, create good flavor, and get good texture.

This is true of dark meat like chicken thighs, but chicken breast is the exact opposite. Cooking at slowly at low (but still conventional stove or oven temperatures) will give you either juicy chicken with little to no browning or dried out chicken with sufficient browning. A chicken breast is like a single-serving steak - it requires fast cooking (although not as fast as a thin steak) to achieve proper browning without overcooking the interior.

The exception is non-conventional very slow methods like sous vide where the the meat is cooked for over an hour in a medium that is more or less the target temperature of the interior of the meat. Although this provides no browning so you'll still want to sear it very quickly over high heat.

If you'd like to see an extreme version of this principle in action, try J. Kenji Lopez Alt's grilled chicken cutlets: https://www.seriouseats.com/five-minute-grilled-chicken-cutl...

By butchering the breast so that it's very thin and cooking it 90% on one side you can get delicious browning and juicy meat genuinely in under 5 minutes. It's a pretty great hack.