Live data from Hacker News

Why do recipe writers lie about how long it takes to caramelize onions? (2012)

slate.com

251–260 of 747 posts

Re: Why do recipe writers lie about how long it takes to caramelize onions? (2012)

#251

For the same reason devs lie about installing arch linux without any problem. When you are good at something, you don't realize how much you do anymore. This article is unrelated, but has a good explananation of the problem in one section : Why not tell people to simply use x https://bitecode.substack.com/p/why-not-tell-people-to-simpl...

This is different. If you learn enough about Linux, you can install Arch in 15-20minutes no problem. Especially since learning about Linux means reinstalling your OS many times until you finally learn how to keep it clean and rescue it from any situation. You are not going to be able to cook chicken in 3-4minutes per side like so many recipes claim. It's just not possible to have a good outside temperature and a good…

> They're lying to make it seem easier and to get more clicks on their recipes.

Doesn't make sense to me. I certainly don't choose a recipe based on the estimated time-to-complete.

In fact I generally click through a bunch of recipes, and pick and choose the ideas that sound as if they'll work. Felicity Cloake does this, in her "How to cook the perfect..." series. She consults a bunch of top cookbooks, tries several mash-ups, and feeds the results to a tasting panel. At least, that's what she says she does; I'm inclined to believe her.

Re: Why do recipe writers lie about how long it takes to caramelize onions? (2012)

#252
What struck me in this piece is that the author tried to experiment but not to understand what he was trying to do. Chemically/Physically I mean.

I became a way better cook when I understood that the Maillard reaction happens starting at 140°C and caramelisation at 180°C (Wondered why this is the default setting of for oven cooking ? Now you know).[1]

The whole thing of cooking, apart from flavour mixing, is to bring your food (onions or anything else) to a high enough temperature to attain the desired reaction. And it is way complex than it seems with several parameters to play with : pan material for general heat conduction, stirring will allow homogeneous temperature conduction in the pan and will give time to the highest bits to cool down, fat helps for local heat conduction, adding water or wine will detach flavorous parts after "maillared" or caramelized (known as deglaced). And certainly many more that I still ignore.

So to come back to the point of caramelized onions, time can help but it is not the unique parameter. As suggested in other comments, you can slow-cook during the night and achieve easily a perfect result. You can also do it quite quickly (I have done it in 5 to 10 min I think) with a strong enough heat source and a lot of stirring to avoid pyrolysis.

In the end, it is no wonder that the famous post of Tim Urban is called "The cook and the chef [...]". [2] All of this makes me wanting to know more about "first principles" of cooking (mainly for flavour mixing, I still have a lot to learn on this point). Maybe receipe writers are making them up on the go, but most of the one I read have at least a bit of "chef" in them to be roughly good in their parameter estimates.

I am surprised no one else bring that up in HN. My main excuse to indulge in frequent visits of this site is that I think most people here try to be first principle thinkers when they comment. By the way, this is a way to long post for here, but I hope it will be useful for curious cooks.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maillard_reaction

[2]https://waitbutwhy.com/2015/11/the-cook-and-the-chef-musks-s...

edit : formatting for readability

Re: Why do recipe writers lie about how long it takes to caramelize onions? (2012)

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the same experience with Marley Spoon. I always make sure I prepare everything in advance but the actual recipe wants you to do some of the cutting and dicing while stuff is already cooking and they often have impossible timing. For example, they will have you fry the meat for 2-3 minutes, clean and chop a boatload of vegetables and add them after those 2-3 minutes pass. Sometimes they even do this during a st…

> They also assume I have an infinite amount of cutting boards and knifes A professional kitchen doesn't either. They wipe things down with sanitizer as they go. i.e. a damp rag from a bucket of water/steramine solution.

A professional kitchen should, at an absolute minimum, have separate cutting boards for raw meat, cooked meat, vegetables, and fish.

Re: Why do recipe writers lie about how long it takes to caramelize onions? (2012)

#254
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> she claims that virtually all recipe books are made like this Most recipe books have pictures, how are those created then?

Gotta say, not really looking forward to GPT generated recipes rendered by Stable Diffusion.

Already on it! The images part. https://jellicles.substack.com/p/10-rooting-for-root-vegetab... : all images are AI generated. I am a classically trained chef and so the recipes are tested. Sure saved me a lot of time to put it together. There is no way I could have thrown something together with pictures without midjourney. The actual recipes are already ready but won’t be up before 2024.

I can come up with..say 10-15 Cabbage dishes with pictures and a write up in 30 minutes. The recipes might take less than one hour if I know where to look. The main thing we learn at culinary school is flavour pairings + texture + colour. French cuisine is very codified with its mother sauces..the six main cooking methods etc ..everything else is derived from the main templates. It’s a little more now with sous vide and gels and alginate etc. but that’s not for home kitchen recipes.

Example: cabbage. Goes well with sweet potato, guacamole, onions, citrus, chilli peppers. carrots, peas. Another example: Walnuts+cabbage. Because there is walnuts, apples will piggy back on those flavors. Because it does, cranberries will piggy back on the apples. Decide which one of the mother sauces. Then I can make a salad or in a taco or a sandwich or a quinoa bowl or soup or like a cabbage roll. That’s like at least..6 recipes I can come up with this one flavour combination.

But there is a method and order to it. You can’t pair cranberries with chilli peppers and cabbage. It won’t work unless you have apples and walnuts. It’s kind of nested.

This is how we build flavours as layers. Next we repeat the same process for textures. Then we do for colours(because we eat with our eyes too). French cuisine being so codified, this process can be applied to any cuisine and any ingredient.

I am putting it across in a simplified manner, but it takes years to ‘get it’ intuitively to build a dish on the fly. I started cooking professionally twenty years ago. I can come up with a book of recipes within a day.

But the pictures tho’ … AI generated photos are a time + money saver. Game changer. I love it!

Re: Why do recipe writers lie about how long it takes to caramelize onions? (2012)

#255
I would say also because people at home are afraid to use the proper heat needed, don't know exactly how to use the stovetop and balance the heat, most people don't have a gas stove (or induction), which could give you more control and people just don't have the proper pans and tools and experience.

Re: Why do recipe writers lie about how long it takes to caramelize onions? (2012)

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat by Samin Nosrat - Ruhlman's 20 by Michael Ruhlman - How to Cook Everything by Mark Bittman

Ratio by Michael Ruhlman as well.

Such a useful book. Algorithms for cooking! I still use this every time I make pancakes, fritters, any type of dough.

Re: Why do recipe writers lie about how long it takes to caramelize onions? (2012)

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go on...

Never been tested once: Bacon-Wrapped Mozzarella Sticks Ingredients: - 12 slices of bacon - 12 mozzarella sticks - 1/2 cup all-purpose flour - 2 eggs, beaten - 1 cup breadcrumbs - 1/2 teaspoon garlic powder - 1/2 teaspoon paprika - Vegetable oil, for frying - Marinara sauce, for serving Instructions: Preheat your oven to 400°F (200°C). Line a baking sheet with parchment paper. Wrap each mozzarella stick with a slice…

This is a pretty plausible recipe. I wouldn't recommend making it though, is basically unhealthy carnival food.

Re: Why do recipe writers lie about how long it takes to caramelize onions? (2012)

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go on...

Never been tested once: Bacon-Wrapped Mozzarella Sticks Ingredients: - 12 slices of bacon - 12 mozzarella sticks - 1/2 cup all-purpose flour - 2 eggs, beaten - 1 cup breadcrumbs - 1/2 teaspoon garlic powder - 1/2 teaspoon paprika - Vegetable oil, for frying - Marinara sauce, for serving Instructions: Preheat your oven to 400°F (200°C). Line a baking sheet with parchment paper. Wrap each mozzarella stick with a slice…

Summary: to make bacon-wrapped mozzarella sticks, take mozzarella sticks (?!) and wrap in bacon.

Re: Why do recipe writers lie about how long it takes to caramelize onions? (2012)

#259

For the same reason devs lie about installing arch linux without any problem. When you are good at something, you don't realize how much you do anymore. This article is unrelated, but has a good explananation of the problem in one section : Why not tell people to simply use x https://bitecode.substack.com/p/why-not-tell-people-to-simpl...

This is different. If you learn enough about Linux, you can install Arch in 15-20minutes no problem. Especially since learning about Linux means reinstalling your OS many times until you finally learn how to keep it clean and rescue it from any situation. You are not going to be able to cook chicken in 3-4minutes per side like so many recipes claim. It's just not possible to have a good outside temperature and a good…

> You are not going to be able to cook chicken in 3-4minutes per side like so many recipes claim. It's just not possible to have a good outside temperature and a good inside temperature no matter how you cook it if you only have that amount of time. They're lying to make it seem easier and to get more clicks on their recipes.

Some of this is probably a difference between home and commercial kitchen equipment.

I know my stove doesn't have the same kind of heat output that a commercial stove would, let alone specialty equipment like pizza ovens or wok burners. And lots of home range hoods are awful for ventilation, which makes it even more impractical to cook at a high heat.

Re: Why do recipe writers lie about how long it takes to caramelize onions? (2012)

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As if I needed more fuel on the fire of my burning hatred for recipe collections. Everyone who is interested in cooking should do themselves a favour and buy a proper cookbook. Something that starts with the basics, and works itself up to full meals. It should have cheat-sheets for basic ways to cook all your staples, here's all the ways you can cook a potato, with times and temperature. Here's all the ways you can s…

Could you recommend such a "proper" cookbook

HelloFresh does a good job explaining how to cook their recipes. After a year of their subscription you will know the basics.
Post reply on HN