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Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

seattletimes.com

181–190 of 310 posts

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#181

The danger of any walkout is that you won't be allowed to walk back in. The time for useful collective action was back when tech companies couldn't hire fast enough, and tech employees enjoyed unusual leverage. After 27,000 layoffs, a performative walkout without a defined goal is just making it easier for Amazon management as they plan the next round of cuts.

Funny how now is never the right time. It's always just gone or some time soon .

My good man, you are responding to an actual union organizer who actually spent the recent boom years doing "now is the right time" work at software companies, at the actual right time.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#182

Wow, the pro-corp tone in some of the comments is surprising. Software jobs are one of the few remaining ones where we still hold the means of production -- and can withhold them to our leverage. These folks are walking out for the right reasons -- big f-off to RTO, and even if a bit late, the layoffs.

There are so many people that stand to lose if a fully remote work force came to pass. Building management, HR, middle managers, property investors, they're the ones you're hearing I'd guess. Pure software dev jobs are very easy to do remotely, it's not like we spend all day talking to people any way.

Here's my hot take that's not actually that hot, I'll start with an analogy every engineer should agree with:

There is a sweet spot for "amount of process" that makes individuals and teams the most productive. Note, I didn't necessarily say happiest, and the productivity may not be sustainable indefinitely but we all know there is a certain sweet spot. Too much process kills productivity. "Can I just please leave this fucking meeting and start writing code?". No process also sucks. "Oh shit, you built that API? I thought I was supposed to be building that"

But just the right amount unblocks everyone and lets teams build stuff efficiently.

The trouble is "the right amount" is different by person, by team, and by project. So the most important thing of any process is to have it be constantly re-evaluated and adjusted as the team and work evolves. But I think we've all been there on a team when things just glide and try to recreate that for the rest of our careers.

I think the same is true for remote work vs in-office work. Sure, on the right task working from home is positively ethereal compared to an office filled with interruptions. But on a long enough timeline, and especially if you are part of the creative process of engineering (ie not just "converting requirements into code" but helping define the requirements, and contributing to the full product, which good companies incentivize their engineers to do), then you do want to be in person with your teammates for at least part of the time. Juniors need access to Seniors to ask questions sitting next to each other or even pair programming. And there is nothing quite like iterating on a design with a peer at a whiteboard compared to a remote session.

Balanced effectively by good teams, a mixture of in-person and remote work is probably the most efficient answer for most teams.

The problem is:

1/ It doesn't happen automatically, much like refining a process, figuring out this balance is going to require much tuning and adaptation. And a top-down company-wide mandate for the same process is the opposite of empowering that for teams bottoms-up.

2/ It has meaningful consequences for people's lives - things like where they reside, and how they commute. Whatever improvements come with a hybrid work environment are probably lost by the candidates you lose who refuse to move, and the sacrifices people have to make in the rest of their lives.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Walking out to protest multiple rounds of layoffs may not be the power move you imagine. Sure it is, if you're unionised! I've seen decades of comments, even here on HN, from devs who say that unions are not necessary for software development. Welcome to the future, I guess?

[flagged]

Screen actors seem to like theirs, so do screen writers, producers, casting agents...

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have a good point but software that exists with no one to sell it is more valuable than salesman with nothing to sell. Never seen that happen. Software that exists with no one to sell it just doesn't get sold. On the other hand, a salesman with nothing to sell is Bill Gates when he signed on to provide MS DOS for IBM. In fact, if you look over the history of this industry, success has, with few exceptions, alwa…

Is this just a difference of perspective? Seems like GP's point was that software has latent value, and differentiation, and the act of selling is commodifiable. Your point, correct me if I'm wrong, is that software is more the commodity and sales is differentiable? I wonder how this stacks up against other software that yielded massive public utility, like UNIX, or the internet.

> Your point, correct me if I'm wrong, is that software is more the commodity and sales is differentiable?

At this point in time ... well, yes.

Just about any software that a business needs is, at this point in time, already written, with few exceptions.

For almost any MVP, at this point in time, you can gauge market interest using something that already exists.

> I wonder how this stacks up against other software that yielded massive public utility, like UNIX, or the internet.

Those were different times, and even those different times things like UNIX were mostly differentiated only by sales-efforts of the hardware vendors.

There was a time when people had to be sold on the idea of the internet being at all useful. It had to be sold.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What many of you are missing is, its gonna hurt US in the long run. 1. If US people wouldnt want to RTO, these jobs will be moved out to India. You can get to hire 3 people for same pay and they are happy to work. Or you can definitely hire pretty good engineer with half cost and same output 2. Unlike labour work, you are not competing with local people or can benefit from unions. You are competing with world and the…

Good engineers seem to cost quite a lot everywhere. I have yet to see the mythical $10 per hour amazing engineer from overseas, although I’ve seen several amazing but expensive engineers from overseas. I think the era of wage arbitrage is over. This myth is perhaps perpetuated to scare the talent over here into accepting worse conditions. Any small gains they can make through arbitrage are eaten by time zone issues,…

To put some real numbers on it. An average React developer in London would charge around £650/day as a contractor. In a second city like Manchester they would charge say £500/day. In Eastern Europe it would be like £220/day.

Yes there are trade offs, but wage arbitrage hasn’t gone away.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are so many people that stand to lose if a fully remote work force came to pass. Building management, HR, middle managers, property investors, they're the ones you're hearing I'd guess. Pure software dev jobs are very easy to do remotely, it's not like we spend all day talking to people any way.

I managed a remote team and man is it harder than in person. One common remote work thought is “you get more heads down time” I’ve found almost the opposite. You have to be way more regular about engagement with each person. I would do 20 min meetings with every team member, every week. Team lunches over zoom twice a week, daily standup (1 min per person, plus breakout rooms for further discussions), Friday afternoon…

> In an office I can walk around the block with you and chat. In a remote setting I have to schedule some time

This is exactly what I love about remote work.

Being able to schedule activities ahead of time and avoid my flow being interrupted makes me so much more productive.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#187
post #9

If only there were some kind of organization employees could belong to that would help counter the asymmetric power of corporations.

The interesting part it isn't even needed for this walk to organise. We don't need unions like we used to, some online admin at most is enough

how are you organizing thing online? how do you contact people? how do you choose policy? How do you support people who aren't being paid due to a strike?

What is it you think unions are doing, that they don't need to do now?

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software developers lose due to increased competition. Instead of competing with just silicon valley you are competing with the entire world.

Software devs may always move somewhere with lower living costs. Good for lots of people who have been forced to move into places like Silicon Valley with crazy expensive housing, even though they would rather live elsewhere.

[deleted]

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#189

Wow, the pro-corp tone in some of the comments is surprising. Software jobs are one of the few remaining ones where we still hold the means of production -- and can withhold them to our leverage. These folks are walking out for the right reasons -- big f-off to RTO, and even if a bit late, the layoffs.

What many of you are missing is, its gonna hurt US in the long run. 1. If US people wouldnt want to RTO, these jobs will be moved out to India. You can get to hire 3 people for same pay and they are happy to work. Or you can definitely hire pretty good engineer with half cost and same output 2. Unlike labour work, you are not competing with local people or can benefit from unions. You are competing with world and the…

... the structural issues the USA and the world faces are probably literally endless, but the free movement of IT work is not one of them.

the claim that it's gonna hurt the US in the long run is almost certainly false, because ironically the long-run US economic and foreign policy goals are constantly hindered by its own protectionist policies.

these policies are the same ones that lead to countless fuckups when it turns out that the US is both "too big to fail", but also still smaller than the world (Puerto Rico, Jones Act, name a more iconic duo; oh right, subsidies forced quasi-monopoly for baby formula and only 3 factories nationwide; oh right, granting WTO MFN status to China without requiring and enforcing reciprocation)

long run America is forced to deal with a lot of unstable allies because they are not integrated economically sufficiently. no shared fate no shared interest, etc.

... of course it's unlikely to "solve" geopolitics in a 7AM HN post, but worrying about offshoring IT jobs is like trying to cordon off the best seats on the deck on the Titanic as the water rises.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon has a reputation of being frugal to the point of stupidity (e.g. https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-employees-use-frupidi... ) so that tired conspiracy theory especially doesn't hold water for them. Amazon wouldn't give a hoot about the opinions of "building management, HR, middle managers", etc. if anyone there could make a solid business case that increasing WFH would significantly improve their bottom l…

Been with Amazon for over a decade. The frupidity used to be a huge sore spot, but being honest, is no longer a part of the culture. Sure, there are no catered buffets or massage chairs, but the old inflexible rigid frupid systems are all gone. Engineers get top of the line M1 Macbooks, nice monitors and good chairs. The desks are all adjustable sit/stand, not doors. You can get and expense whatever software you need…

What if you work in a warehouse and need to pee twice a day?
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