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Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

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Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#341

Post by randcraw »

yurishimo wrote: post #264
vlovich123 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most modern development is gluing components together and wrangling packages. It's so far removed from the machine and the distance is only growing. That’s actually what I love most about things today. Hard components I might want to use probably already have a ready to made library I can start with. Time from inception to prototype to production is so short that it really removes a lot of the tedium. I wish it cou…

Same for me as well. I don't want to talk to hardware because the ideas I have in my head are so removed from that problem space. I want to build tools to help normal people do stuff or create automation. I fully understand and appreciate that to make all of that work, the low level stuff also needs to be fast and functional, but I'm not the person to make that optimization. I really enjoy being a web developer despi…

But does the cut-and-paste model of coding scale to 30+ years of developing code? I don't know of any problem domain that's so deep and compelling that I could stay engrossed in solving high-level tasks for that long. Either I have to change domains (as I have maybe 4 times in my 37 years), or vary my routine by occasionally diving into the nitty gritty of low-level code and O/S services.

Being a _user_ of code doesn't appeal to me at all. I work at a big pharma and know lots of biologists and especially chemists who are proficient programmers. They use code (more than craft it), but they're impassioned by the science itself. Coding is merely a tool to them, the means to a more compelling end.

I don't share their perspective, nor do I want to compete in that space, so I get my jollies by learning the info extraction process and diving into the cool, underserved, often complicated parts, like image quantification and pattern enhancement/recognition in raw and dirty data. That often requires some math and some low level bit twiddling, in code and in signals. I can't imagine cutting and pasting my way through that world, nor would I ever want to.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#342

Post by jimt1234 »

asveikau wrote: post #330
jimt1234 wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was forced to manage someone out years ago. It was awful. My bosses didn't like this one guy, and honestly, he wasn't the best employee, but just they told me to stop giving work to him. Nothing. No work at all. He would come to me and ask what he was supposed to be working on. I had to just say that I'd get him something soon. I had to tell others not to give him any work or go to him for anything. He sat there at…

The key phrase is they didn't like him. A lot of times it's personal rather than work related. Folks, this is the purpose of performance reviews. It doesn't have much to do with your work or ability to do work. It's a bunch of paperwork to justify how management feels about everybody on a personal, not professional level.

Exactly ^^^ Here's how it went down in my case; it's so bad. ... The dude played in a rock band in his free time. He had a show up in LA (we're in San Diego) on a "school night". The next day, Wednesday morning, he showed up to an 8am meeting looking like shit. He said that he got zero sleep the previous night. He played the show up in LA, packed up his gear (he was a drummer), then drove back to San Diego, got home around 6am, unpacked and drove straight to the office.

No big deal, the meeting was boring, as usual, until a director from another group jokingly commented to our director, my boss, something like, "Gosh, your staff looks like hell. You must be working them to death." It was just a light-hearted, lame joke; got a chuckle in the room. After the meeting, I was pulled into my boss' office where he told me he was sooo embarrassed by the other director's comment. He was really mad. My boss was new to being a director and he felt as the other director was throwing shade on him, implying he doesn't know how to manage a staff, therefore he doesn't deserve to be a director. And everyone in the meeting was laughing, so they all must've agreed. So my boss told me to get rid of the rock-band guy. I rebutted, saying the fact that rock-band guy stayed up all night, and drove straight to work, showed that he was dedicated, and that he (my boss) was such a great director, cultivating a culture of hard work and dedication. My boss wasn't buying, and told me exactly how to manage him out: stop giving him work.

So yeah, it had absolutely nothing to do with his work. It was all because some dude got butt-hurt by a lame comment in a meeting.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#343

Post by shrimp_emoji »

ryeguy_24 wrote: post #233
vjk800 wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to love the long periods of focus in my 20s, but ever since more life started happening, I can't do those anymore. It turns out my stress tolerance is incredibly low and when the life outside my work is not completely in order (like it rarely is after the 20s), being able to get into the flow state gets very difficult. I wish I was one of those people who could just forget the problems at home, etc. when they…

Hmm, interesting. I'm 39 and used to have amazing flow sessions in late 20s and early 30s but not seeing them much anymore. I can't tell if it's because of stresses of life or simply because I don't have enough time (with 3 young kids) to allow myself to fall into a state of flow. I really hope it's not stresses or my brain changing because I really valued those periods of focus.

Fwiw, I've never had good flow states. :p

When I code, there's always so much stuff I don't know that I have to look up or so many big design/refactoring questions that I'm discovering in real time and have to grapple with. It's as flowy as your car getting stuck in the mud every 2 miles and having to get out and push. It's as productive as having a bipartisan Congressional hearing on the best posture to use every time you have to push it out of the mud. Incrementalism and time management are my friends cuz it's exhausting to do that for too long without breaks!

Nevertheless, programming remains my favorite professional and hobbyist activity.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#344

Post by drakonka »

I don't think I'll ever stop coding, even after I retire. I originally learned programming in order to bring the random ideas, worlds, etc in my head to life. Even though I've now been doing it professionally for over a decade, the ideas never seem to run out.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#346

Post by ed25519FUUU »

kzrdude wrote: post #135
ed25519FUUU wrote: post #44

As for myself, I already know I won’t be programming in retirement. Not because I don’t love programming. I do! But because life is a journey and I know the next phase is teaching and mentoring. I don’t know what it will look like exactly, but I know I won’t be in the driver’s seat.

I've been thinking along these lines, do you have a path in mind for how to get into teaching? What kind of teaching?

Probably a community college class.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#347

Post by mechanicker »

kstenerud wrote: post #142

In 2 days time I'll mark my 27th year as a professional programmer (and just over 40 years since I started programming). I've worked in small companies, big companies, and mega-corporations. I've been a programmer, manager, team lead and CTO. And in doing so I discovered that I don't like managing people, I don't like meetings, and I don't like paperwork. I like long periods of focus. So I'm a software dev/architect…

I am on my 26th year as a programmer. I love the fact that I can imagine and also make it happen.

However, I see a constant push from people around me to focus on creating a pipeline of ideas and let others implement them. Unfortunately, I do not see the same level of enthusiasm I have in implementing some of those ideas - could be due to lack of recognition since it is not their original idea.

Once I retire, I will just go back to where it all started. Come up with an idea followed by implementation. The sheer pleasure of seeing your idea working in a reasonable timeframe is exhilarating!

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#348

Post by [deleted] »

doppel wrote: post #133
irrational wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Technical leadership is very expensive to find though, and once you find one you don’t let them go back to the production line. I have a friend at our company who is a gifted programmer. He was moved into a management position. He discovered that he hated working in a leadership position. He tried to get them to move him back to an individual contributor position. They refused. He said, move me back or I quit. It t…

I feel it's completely acceptable to wish to stay in an IC position, but to refuse outright to give advise or share the experience (it's hard to tell from your short paragraph) seems... odd? It's acceptable to want to stay in a specific role, but I am not certain I feel it's acceptable to eschew an increasing responsibility or mentoring role as you gain experience. That way lies the "genius programmer that works alon…

[deleted]

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#349

Post by randcraw »

hgs3 wrote: post #49

> But there is something becoming more familiar to me as I go back to the wild west of C programming (where very little happens behind the scenes I might point out - no garbage collection here!). I share this sentiment. I pursued computer science because of the romanticized notation of tracking every bit and byte and talking directly to the hardware. I know I'm not alone given the popularity of old-school fantasy con…

I've noticed the same transition away from wrenching your own low-level code to making high-level calls to routines written by others. Maybe that's partly because my employer (a big pharma) tends to attract either IT types or bench scientists, but few who are pure computist CS types inclined to get their fingernails dirty with bit twiddling. After 17 years working in biomedical R&D, each time a low-level CS topic happens to arise, I'm surprised again by how much it resonates with me and attracts my rapt attention. Alas, because pharmas seldom hire CS grads, there seem to be few with whom I can share my glee.

Or maybe today's CS grads speak a different language too.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#350

Post by MetaWhirledPeas »

wingerlang wrote: post #145
doppel wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel it's completely acceptable to wish to stay in an IC position, but to refuse outright to give advise or share the experience (it's hard to tell from your short paragraph) seems... odd? It's acceptable to want to stay in a specific role, but I am not certain I feel it's acceptable to eschew an increasing responsibility or mentoring role as you gain experience. That way lies the "genius programmer that works alon…

> I feel it's completely acceptable to wish to stay in an IC position, but to refuse outright to give advise or share the experience (it's hard to tell from your short paragraph) seems... odd? I think it depends on how much time they expected him to take out of his days. My girlfriend resigned from a job after becoming a go-to person for everything and everyone. It caused her to not have time for her own work, effect…

Yes, this happens. If one behaves like a pleasant, helpful individual (as one should!), it's a risk. There are only so many hours in the day!

My advice for any such person is to find a way to redirect questions to other capable people (when you're overloaded), or to reframe answers to be more educational. I'm not perfect at it but I'm trying.

Some helpful tips:

- If you're going to give someone instruction, ask them to share their screen while you walk them through the steps. They are far more likely to remember it this way.

- Avoid short answers. Be annoyingly informative when appropriate. Yes, I'm happy to tell you about XYZ but not without giving you way more than you bargained for!

Consider these scenarios. In each scenario, which option would you pick?

A: Look at my notes and figure it out for myself OR get an answer from Annie in 5 seconds

B: Look at my notes and figure it out for myself OR be accosted by Annie for a 30-minute video call where I'm asked to screen share my way through the steps

I think B is more likely to produce self-reliant teammates.

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