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Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

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Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#291

Post by bazmattaz »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #232

I've been working with Apple since 1986. I very much have enjoyed their ecosystem, and probably like them, for many of the same reasons that a lot of geeks hate them. It's worked out OK, for me. My first exposure to Apple personnel, were the MacHack conferences, of the late 1980s. Back then, Apple was still pretty "scruffy." Some of the T-shirts that showed up at MacHack are now silk-shirts at Apple. Over the years,…

Sounds like you have had an fascinating career. I dunno, but maybe the world need two types of engineers; ones motivated by good code and ones motivated by money.

I wonder though if you can develop a superb product and company with just money alone. In a way you probably need evangelists rather than just hired guns.

In my experience as a product manager, the evangelists are much more creative than the hired guns. You can throw lots of money toward the development of a product but that doesn’t mean you’ll get innovative solutions from your team.

You need a mix of believers as well as hired guns.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#292

Post by strikelaserclaw »

cheschire wrote: post #18

I once had a PM who told me coding was just a stepping stone to them in their career. I couldn’t understand, I thought they must not have been a “natural” like me. Fast forward a few years, after taking on more mentorship roles, then staff responsibilities, then slipping into project oversight roles… She was so right. Coding was a great stepping stone. Several years ago my father got promoted to some leadership role.…

wouldn't leadership value leadership? us vs them mentality? There are software eng at my company who are much much more valuable than some of the leadership

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#293

Post by jgraettinger1 »

ryeguy_24 wrote: post #233
vjk800 wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to love the long periods of focus in my 20s, but ever since more life started happening, I can't do those anymore. It turns out my stress tolerance is incredibly low and when the life outside my work is not completely in order (like it rarely is after the 20s), being able to get into the flow state gets very difficult. I wish I was one of those people who could just forget the problems at home, etc. when they…

Hmm, interesting. I'm 39 and used to have amazing flow sessions in late 20s and early 30s but not seeing them much anymore. I can't tell if it's because of stresses of life or simply because I don't have enough time (with 3 young kids) to allow myself to fall into a state of flow. I really hope it's not stresses or my brain changing because I really valued those periods of focus.

Also 39, also three young kids. It’s hard.

One thing I’ve noticed, though, is that my difficultly in getting into a flow state is more often than not because of a subconscious hang-up about the approach that I haven’t articulated yet.

I’ve learned to recognize and lean into this, and actively look for what’s bothering me about a design. Usually while doing other things.

I suspect it’s actually saved effort overall.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#294

Post by the_only_law »

hgs3 wrote: post #49

> But there is something becoming more familiar to me as I go back to the wild west of C programming (where very little happens behind the scenes I might point out - no garbage collection here!). I share this sentiment. I pursued computer science because of the romanticized notation of tracking every bit and byte and talking directly to the hardware. I know I'm not alone given the popularity of old-school fantasy con…

My entry to the field was a bit odd. I’ve been a hobbyist since I was a kid, but I never wanted to enter the files professionally, at least not the way I did. I knew I wouldn’t like it.

But my immediate post high school plans fell through I spent a year working crappy jobs until I eventually figured “you know I bet I could get a job as a software developer if I tried”. It surely would do a lot better for paying the bills.

Nowadays I mostly tell people: I didn’t get into programming for the money, but that’s sure as hell why I entered the industry.

Of course, it looks like my little stint is over, but I don’t know what to do now. On paper it’s the only thing I’m qualified for that’s not unskilled labor.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#295

Post by pradn »

brabel wrote: post #121
lastangryman wrote: post #102

I find it surprising (in a good way) the author could be a programmer for 26 years at Apple. A lot of corporate places I've worked at are always pushing you to progress in to leadership positions; if you aren't moving upwards then you are "managed out" which I always find really sad, the idea that simply being good at your job is now no longer enough. Good on Apple if they don't follow this type of thinking.

An experienced programmer may not be able to write a lot of code faster than an intermediate programmer, but will know to NOT write code or waste time on things they know (from experience) are not required, or desirable... and focus on those things that really matter. This is worth so much for a company. Developers in the middle of their careers are dangerous: they can achieve a lot, but they can easily veer off on a…

Execs can waste years by investing in the wrong projects, tech leads can waste quarters of time by picking the wrong architecture/ecosystem, junior engineers can waste days by picking the wrong approach to a ticket. And benefit goes the same way.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#296

Post by HelloMcFly »

tm-guimaraes wrote: post #140
doppel wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel it's completely acceptable to wish to stay in an IC position, but to refuse outright to give advise or share the experience (it's hard to tell from your short paragraph) seems... odd? It's acceptable to want to stay in a specific role, but I am not certain I feel it's acceptable to eschew an increasing responsibility or mentoring role as you gain experience. That way lies the "genius programmer that works alon…

Saying “no” is the correct answer. It’s the same as not solving chat request bypassing prioritization. The company is full of incentives to ask that guy for guidance/things, if he doesn’t say no most or all of the time, he simply won’t have time for his IC role, and would remain a lead just not in name. It’s hard that it comes to that extreme measure, but if his requests aren’t being heard, it’s either that or leavin…

I think it's one thing to push back on repeated requests for your input/opinion outside of your role in a way that makes you a "de facto" leader. But I think it's wholly another if you're the person with the best insight, and there is need for your knowledge to be shared. Coders are knowledge workers, not widget makers - they're paid for what they know and can do with that knowledge. This doesn't need to mean you become a manager, join committees, get added to ever-increasing cross-functional project teams.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#297

Post by cableshaft »

zorrotorro wrote: post #115
rubicon33 wrote: post #52

> I am not sure though if this is still the case for software engineers. Are there younger engineers, new to the career, for whom programming is not merely a job but something they can imagine doing in their spare time? I think I met a few as I was winding down my career. I do feel though that back around 1988 or so when I started getting serious into programming that all fellow programmers I met were also doing it w…

> I want to work with more people who LOVE software and find the development of machines and the code that runs on them as fascinating as I do. Unfortunately, its less and less these days. While I like software I'm beginning to see it as a rather bad career. While you make more money early in the career, you stop doing so rather fast and other jobs catch up quite quickly and surpass you. I guess there's always the ex…

Wow, that's depressing. So that seems to suggest that assuming I am smart (which I'd like to think I am), I should have already ditched software engineering and gone into a different field altogether.

It's got some interesting points. I'd love to hear more about their assertion of how someone who is a fast learner benefits from a more stable field. It sort of makes sense as they wrote it but I'd like to read more about it.

Here I thought I was always going to do software in some capacity as long as I was working professionally, but maybe I really shouldn't. No idea what that would be though. Just going into management isn't it, at least not for me.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#298

Post by wing-_-nuts »

neilv wrote: post #278
ryeguy_24 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, interesting. I'm 39 and used to have amazing flow sessions in late 20s and early 30s but not seeing them much anymore. I can't tell if it's because of stresses of life or simply because I don't have enough time (with 3 young kids) to allow myself to fall into a state of flow. I really hope it's not stresses or my brain changing because I really valued those periods of focus.

Have you tried going back to the theory of Flow, and the conditions for it to happen, and compare&contrast your current situation with earlier ones? I suppose that the differences might be subtle. For one example, for the condition that you have a sense of doing a good job, your metric for good job might have changed: it might no longer be simply make an algorithm to do X , but include larger context, including the r…

>BTW, keeping in mind that techbro ageism is a thing, especially in YC-type circles (that's how YC started)

Can you elaborate on 'that's how YC started'?

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#299

Post by wing-_-nuts »

SOLAR_FIELDS wrote: post #246
brabel wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An experienced programmer may not be able to write a lot of code faster than an intermediate programmer, but will know to NOT write code or waste time on things they know (from experience) are not required, or desirable... and focus on those things that really matter. This is worth so much for a company. Developers in the middle of their careers are dangerous: they can achieve a lot, but they can easily veer off on a…

One of my mantras that I picked up as I moved into a more senior level is “the fastest and easiest to maintain code is the code you don’t have to write at all”. Knowing when and what to write is as much a skill as writing the code in the first place. Also, Apple, presumably being a very siloed organization, probably benefits more from tribal knowledge of the elders more than your typical organization.

There's also the pragmatic flip side to this coin. 'Bad' code that does something is infinitely faster than the perfect implementation that was never written.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#300

Post by tambourine_man »

nawgz wrote: post #272
tambourine_man wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not generalizing my emotions, there’s even a term for it: workaholic. It’s a thing. You may not experience it, but your “I can stop whenever I want” kind of phrase doesn’t help you make your point.

This whole conversation is a ridiculous stretch - you just misquoted me to imply I’m a workaholic, and implied everyone else is too. Enough.

I think I might have hit a nerve. Not my intention, sorry.
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