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Poverty Is the 4th Leading Cause of Death in the US, Research Shows

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Re: Poverty Is the 4th Leading Cause of Death in the US, Research Shows

#31

Post by bombcar »

flagrant_taco wrote: post #24

> Poverty, which the study defines as less than half the median U.S. income Is this the same definition of poverty used by the federal government for all other poverty-related statistics? If not, it sure is interesting that the study would come up with it's own definition. Unfortunately the links study appears to be behind a Jama pay wall, I'd love to see how they came up with that and whether it was defined before t…

I can't read the firey letters, but it seems it's somewhere in here: https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/01/19/2023-00...

The "federal poverty guidelines" are kind of useless on their own - you need the percentage adjustments that various states apply to handle the incredible cost of living differences that exist.

Re: Poverty Is the 4th Leading Cause of Death in the US, Research Shows

#32

Post by AndrewKemendo »

qgin wrote: post #16
monetus wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The extremes are what people will talk about most, for sure; I lived that experience in a state where medicaid wasn't expanded and have trouble shutting up about it. Most everyone around me avoided that experience, almost everyone in my social circles.

States without medicaid expansion are very rough. Most people don't realize that ACA plans have a minimum income to qualify. Medicaid was supposed to take over below that income level. If you're in Florida or Texas and are an adult who isn't currently pregnant (or have a legally declared disability), and make less than 150% of the federal poverty limit, there is literally no insurance you can get except paying full r…

You describe precicely my situation after being laid off last year

$1600 a month for health insurance

Re: Poverty Is the 4th Leading Cause of Death in the US, Research Shows

#33

Post by mindslight »

TMWNN wrote: post #11
hunglee2 wrote: post #2

"Poverty, which the study defined as less than half the median U.S. income" I wonder how much of this can be attributed to medical bankruptcy. If you cannot afford insurance, get injured, can't afford treatment...pretty straightforward doom loop to an early grave

>I wonder how much of this can be attributed to medical bankruptcy. Only 4% of US bankruptcies are because of medical bills https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2018/0... >. A tipoff that [insert large percentage here] of bankruptcies aren't actually because of medical costs is that only 6% of bankruptcies by those without health insurance are because of that cause. The biggest cause of bankruptcies…

> the way people online ~~lie~~ exaggerate it's not surprising that so many non-Americans believe that every American is one hangnail away from bankruptcy.

People exaggerating online certainly don't cause more confusion than the routine lies of medical providers, sending bills with completely-fictitious humongous numbers claiming to be the price. And then even if you do have "insurance" (which isn't actually insurance, but rather more of an anticompetitive protection racket), the provider and the "insurance" company both continue to keep the actual prices obfuscated with those fictitious numbers and a whole bunch of "adjustments", rather than ever just plainly stating prices.

There are certainly a lot of overly simplistic narratives about US healthcare, like every political topic. But the entire system is death by a thousand cuts of patently absurd behavior (like the above), that would be plainly illegal with any sort of sane regulation. Like imagine going to the grocery store, paying the cashier, and then getting shaken down months later by food distributors claiming that you only paid the cashier to bag and that you owe them money.

Re: Poverty Is the 4th Leading Cause of Death in the US, Research Shows

#34

Post by flagrant_taco »

bombcar wrote: post #31
flagrant_taco wrote: post #24

> Poverty, which the study defines as less than half the median U.S. income Is this the same definition of poverty used by the federal government for all other poverty-related statistics? If not, it sure is interesting that the study would come up with it's own definition. Unfortunately the links study appears to be behind a Jama pay wall, I'd love to see how they came up with that and whether it was defined before t…

I can't read the firey letters, but it seems it's somewhere in here: https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/01/19/2023-00... The "federal poverty guidelines" are kind of useless on their own - you need the percentage adjustments that various states apply to handle the incredible cost of living differences that exist.

I can't say if it's in the paywalled study or just the article, but multiple stats and links used point back to government poverty data which would be using a different definition than the study.

At a minimum that would be sloppy journalism, but in my opinion any researcher should see that coming and use the standard definition that the study is clearly attempting to compare against. It really doesn't seem to make sense to redefine such a loaded term even if the federal definition is tedious to work with.

Re: Poverty Is the 4th Leading Cause of Death in the US, Research Shows

#35

Post by bombcar »

flagrant_taco wrote: post #34
bombcar wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't read the firey letters, but it seems it's somewhere in here: https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/01/19/2023-00... The "federal poverty guidelines" are kind of useless on their own - you need the percentage adjustments that various states apply to handle the incredible cost of living differences that exist.

I can't say if it's in the paywalled study or just the article, but multiple stats and links used point back to government poverty data which would be using a different definition than the study. At a minimum that would be sloppy journalism, but in my opinion any researcher should see that coming and use the standard definition that the study is clearly attempting to compare against. It really doesn't seem to make se…

Agreed, the "poverty line" is such a well-defined term of art that you shouldn't even consider using the word unless you're referencing it (which can be fine to do the "200% of" math because that's often still quite low).

In this case it sounds like they'd be better off defining something else because "the half of the people below the median" has some obviously glaring issues right off the bat.

Re: Poverty Is the 4th Leading Cause of Death in the US, Research Shows

#36

Post by jacquesm »

TMWNN wrote: post #11
hunglee2 wrote: post #2

"Poverty, which the study defined as less than half the median U.S. income" I wonder how much of this can be attributed to medical bankruptcy. If you cannot afford insurance, get injured, can't afford treatment...pretty straightforward doom loop to an early grave

>I wonder how much of this can be attributed to medical bankruptcy. Only 4% of US bankruptcies are because of medical bills https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2018/0... >. A tipoff that [insert large percentage here] of bankruptcies aren't actually because of medical costs is that only 6% of bankruptcies by those without health insurance are because of that cause. The biggest cause of bankruptcies…

> Only 4% of US bankruptcies are because of medical bills

That's not 'only'.

In quite a few other countries that percentage is zero.

Re: Poverty Is the 4th Leading Cause of Death in the US, Research Shows

#37

Post by jacquesm »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #32
qgin wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

States without medicaid expansion are very rough. Most people don't realize that ACA plans have a minimum income to qualify. Medicaid was supposed to take over below that income level. If you're in Florida or Texas and are an adult who isn't currently pregnant (or have a legally declared disability), and make less than 150% of the federal poverty limit, there is literally no insurance you can get except paying full r…

You describe precicely my situation after being laid off last year $1600 a month for health insurance

That's absolutely indecent. Has this been solved by now? Are you managing? (email in profile if you want)

Re: Poverty Is the 4th Leading Cause of Death in the US, Research Shows

#38

Post by AbrahamParangi »

jrflowers wrote: post #29
Max-Limelihood wrote: post #17

Are the first 3 causes dying, aging, and poor health? As soon as you start allowing abstract concepts that contribute to a person's death to count as the cause of a person's death, this stops being an especially meaningful statistic. I'd much rather see a calculation of how many years of life are lost, an actually meaningful metric.

> I'd much rather see a calculation of how many years of life are lost, an actually meaningful metric. How do you calculate the number of years lost? Do you subtract their age from the national age expectancy or do you run a prediction model to extrapolate the age each individual would have lived to given what data is available for them?

Those are both better ideas than the cited study!

Re: Poverty Is the 4th Leading Cause of Death in the US, Research Shows

#39

Post by Madmallard »

atdrummond wrote: post #10
Madmallard wrote: post #7

I became disabled in 2018. I have accumulated 5 figures in debt already since even while being on Cobra and now Medicare. This is criminal.

Just don’t pay it. I wish I had been told this instead of flushing thousands upon thousands down the toilet in a futile attempt to keep the balance at $0. The system is designed to be adversarial and your best tactic as a patient is to delay, delay, delay and fight every single bill. I have had seven operations for Crohns, a back surgery, and treatment for ongoing Leukaemia. I have lived in a half dozen different jur…

I imagine at some point UCLA or Cedar Sinai will just stop offering me services? I need to see nutrition but it isn’t covered by medicare so it is $600 for an appointment but it is integral to my actual condition so it seems like I am being screwed over. I cannot pay that and also eat, which sorta defeats the purpose of staying alive. I cannot do food banks because I have a mast cell disorder and what I can actually safely eat is complicated. I don’t have a clue how to navigate this.

Re: Poverty Is the 4th Leading Cause of Death in the US, Research Shows

#40

Post by tsimionescu »

bombcar wrote: post #35
flagrant_taco wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't say if it's in the paywalled study or just the article, but multiple stats and links used point back to government poverty data which would be using a different definition than the study. At a minimum that would be sloppy journalism, but in my opinion any researcher should see that coming and use the standard definition that the study is clearly attempting to compare against. It really doesn't seem to make se…

Agreed, the "poverty line" is such a well-defined term of art that you shouldn't even consider using the word unless you're referencing it (which can be fine to do the "200% of" math because that's often still quite low). In this case it sounds like they'd be better off defining something else because "the half of the people below the median" has some obviously glaring issues right off the bat.

While I mostly agree, note that the definition in the study is not "the half of people below the median", it's "all the people earning less than half of the median income".
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