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Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

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Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#71

Post by sspiff »

rubicon33 wrote: post #52

> I am not sure though if this is still the case for software engineers. Are there younger engineers, new to the career, for whom programming is not merely a job but something they can imagine doing in their spare time? I think I met a few as I was winding down my career. I do feel though that back around 1988 or so when I started getting serious into programming that all fellow programmers I met were also doing it w…

In my experience, most of my coworkers have been passionate about some aspects of software development at least.

People aren't always passionate about the projects we work on at work, but most are passionate about things like software craftmanship, quality, or maybe just technology itself, or the problem solving aspect, or some are perpetually in love with how software allows you to create almost anything out of nothing.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#72

Post by ilrwbwrkhv »

Thank you for your 26 years of service. Career programmers like you who still love programming at the end of it are a treasure. Programming is wonderful. It is an art in itself. Even though Slack and Leetcode and all the rest ruin it, there is nothing else which sparks joy and a sense of wonder like it does for some of us. I wish in our industry we had more wider appreciation and events where we could share stories like you and felicitate you.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#73

Post by jossclimb »

rubicon33 wrote: post #52

> I am not sure though if this is still the case for software engineers. Are there younger engineers, new to the career, for whom programming is not merely a job but something they can imagine doing in their spare time? I think I met a few as I was winding down my career. I do feel though that back around 1988 or so when I started getting serious into programming that all fellow programmers I met were also doing it w…

This is largely the result of one thing; Money.

The past few years have seen salaries climb to what could even be claimed as crazy levels, when compared to what other professionals make, esp non CS engineers. Compounded even more by the portrayal of the software dev lifestyle. Working from home, or being in an office with lots of free perks.

This naturally led to lots of people wanting in.

I like you, originally got into programming as a career as it was what I loved doing, it was a given I would go that route. This was at a time where engineers made far less than they do today.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#74

Post by linguae »

crossroadsguy wrote: post #64
rubicon33 wrote: post #52

> I am not sure though if this is still the case for software engineers. Are there younger engineers, new to the career, for whom programming is not merely a job but something they can imagine doing in their spare time? I think I met a few as I was winding down my career. I do feel though that back around 1988 or so when I started getting serious into programming that all fellow programmers I met were also doing it w…

> replaced by a clock-in and clock-out mentality I started as a software engineer who was "passionate about software" and could see my life revolving around it. The change in my mindset towards this, that gradually happened few years ago, i.e. the "clock-in and clock-out mentality" is one of the best changes in my life! It always shocks me to see such sentiments from people. I mean how difficult is it for people to c…

I understand this point of view. Unfortunately, for those who entered computing out of a passion for it, it’s difficult to work for employers or managers where computing isn’t a passion. This leads to all sorts of practices that suck the joy out of programming (e.g., Leetcode, meetings, KPIs, PIPs, certain design decisions, etc.), reducing it to a corporate “monkey dance.” Maybe I have rose-colored glasses, or maybe I’m simply expecting too much from employment, but it seems to me that back in the 80s and 90s there was a lot more passion in the field compared to today. The pressure and the constraints are enough to make me want to change occupations at times away from computing and treat it as solely a hobby or as a side venture, except I can’t think of any other occupation that pays enough to live in America’s expensive cities that doesn’t require returning to graduate school and getting into five or six more figures of debt for a professional degree.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#75

Post by raz32dust »

ilrwbwrkhv wrote: post #72

Thank you for your 26 years of service. Career programmers like you who still love programming at the end of it are a treasure. Programming is wonderful. It is an art in itself. Even though Slack and Leetcode and all the rest ruin it, there is nothing else which sparks joy and a sense of wonder like it does for some of us. I wish in our industry we had more wider appreciation and events where we could share stories l…

Wait what did Slack do?

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#76

Post by emodendroket »

rubicon33 wrote: post #52

> I am not sure though if this is still the case for software engineers. Are there younger engineers, new to the career, for whom programming is not merely a job but something they can imagine doing in their spare time? I think I met a few as I was winding down my career. I do feel though that back around 1988 or so when I started getting serious into programming that all fellow programmers I met were also doing it w…

I mean... I don't know, I've done this as a full-time job for 10 years already. I still like it but I have other stuff going on I'm interested in and it's hard to sustain the same level of enthusiasm after that much time. Even in a career like acting or pro sports a lot of people eventually are just working for a paycheck and not really sustained by a passion for their work.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#77

Post by emodendroket »

crossroadsguy wrote: post #64
rubicon33 wrote: post #52

> I am not sure though if this is still the case for software engineers. Are there younger engineers, new to the career, for whom programming is not merely a job but something they can imagine doing in their spare time? I think I met a few as I was winding down my career. I do feel though that back around 1988 or so when I started getting serious into programming that all fellow programmers I met were also doing it w…

> replaced by a clock-in and clock-out mentality I started as a software engineer who was "passionate about software" and could see my life revolving around it. The change in my mindset towards this, that gradually happened few years ago, i.e. the "clock-in and clock-out mentality" is one of the best changes in my life! It always shocks me to see such sentiments from people. I mean how difficult is it for people to c…

Plus an interest in developing one's career eventually means focusing on things other than growing slightly better at writing code (such as mentoring, designs, apportioning work, working with many stakeholders, and so on).

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#78

Post by emodendroket »

linguae wrote: post #74
crossroadsguy wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> replaced by a clock-in and clock-out mentality I started as a software engineer who was "passionate about software" and could see my life revolving around it. The change in my mindset towards this, that gradually happened few years ago, i.e. the "clock-in and clock-out mentality" is one of the best changes in my life! It always shocks me to see such sentiments from people. I mean how difficult is it for people to c…

I understand this point of view. Unfortunately, for those who entered computing out of a passion for it, it’s difficult to work for employers or managers where computing isn’t a passion. This leads to all sorts of practices that suck the joy out of programming (e.g., Leetcode, meetings, KPIs, PIPs, certain design decisions, etc.), reducing it to a corporate “monkey dance.” Maybe I have rose-colored glasses, or maybe…

Leetcode is actually one of the things that makes me feel energized about programming... it's just the pure problem-solving part without logging, legacy software constraints, tedious debates about code styling, and the other lame parts of the job.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#79

Post by emodendroket »

kweingar wrote: post #61
rubicon33 wrote: post #52

> I am not sure though if this is still the case for software engineers. Are there younger engineers, new to the career, for whom programming is not merely a job but something they can imagine doing in their spare time? I think I met a few as I was winding down my career. I do feel though that back around 1988 or so when I started getting serious into programming that all fellow programmers I met were also doing it w…

I had this attitude in college. I wasn’t a CS major, but I really enjoyed programming. I was floored by how many CS majors seemed to not enjoy the discipline. My interest in computers and programming hasn’t waned. But with every passing year, I have become more invested in my relationships, obligations, health, and other hobbies. So programming is a much smaller slice of the pie these days. I still think of myself as…

That's well said... I feel this way even about pure fun pursuits like video games. Yeah, I still like video games, but I also like time with my daughter and wife or getting outside and playing sports or a bunch of other things I didn't use to do that kind of crowd out a well I've gone to many, many times anyway.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#80

Post by ChuckMcM »

rubicon33 wrote: post #52

> I am not sure though if this is still the case for software engineers. Are there younger engineers, new to the career, for whom programming is not merely a job but something they can imagine doing in their spare time? I think I met a few as I was winding down my career. I do feel though that back around 1988 or so when I started getting serious into programming that all fellow programmers I met were also doing it w…

I'm one of those folks who loved writing code before I realized people would pay you to write code. As a result it has been my recreation for a long time.

A surprising number of acquaintances of mine have failed at retirement[1]. That has never been my problem :-). That said, I still do consulting because it lets me play with equipment that I might not otherwise decide to buy (like million $ RF labs :-)) However I've structured it to take a back seat to my own projects and the opportunities as they present to go camping or on other adventures.

I also know a bunch of people who never wanted to see a computer again after they didn't need to work, one of whom actually went back and got a degree in creative writing because they really wanted to be a writer all along.

It is also super helpful to have a spouse or partner you like to hang out with. One friend of mine opened an office so that he could be out of the house sometimes when things got too hectic.

All good problems to have.

[1] To fail at retirement is to have the resources to pay all the bills and do fun things without "working" but getting bored from the lack of interesting challenges and so going back into the workforce anyway.

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