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Poverty Is the 4th Leading Cause of Death in the US, Research Shows

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Re: Poverty Is the 4th Leading Cause of Death in the US, Research Shows

#11

Post by TMWNN »

hunglee2 wrote: post #2

"Poverty, which the study defined as less than half the median U.S. income" I wonder how much of this can be attributed to medical bankruptcy. If you cannot afford insurance, get injured, can't afford treatment...pretty straightforward doom loop to an early grave

>I wonder how much of this can be attributed to medical bankruptcy.

Only 4% of US bankruptcies are because of medical bills https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2018/0...>. A tipoff that [insert large percentage here] of bankruptcies aren't actually because of medical costs is that only 6% of bankruptcies by those without health insurance are because of that cause. The biggest cause of bankruptcies is lack of income, which health insurance doesn't affect.

91% of Americans have medical insurance, whether through their employers, or government programs like Medicare/Medicaid. That's compared to 95-97% in other developed countries because there are always some people who fall through cracks, like (say) a Canadian who doesn't get a new provincial health care card after moving, or a German who neglects to buy into a new sickness fund after changing careers. The only such systems with actual 100% (or as close to it as possible) coverage is something like the UK NHS, which does not have a requirement to show a membership card (because, well, there isn't one) to receive treatment.

There are things I'd certainly improve about the US system—decoupling primary healthcare coverage from employment, for one—but the way people online ~~lie~~ exaggerate it's not surprising that so many non-Americans believe that every American is one hangnail away from bankruptcy.

PS - Obamacare did not greatly expand coverage. 85% of Americans had medical insurance pre-Obamacare.

Re: Poverty Is the 4th Leading Cause of Death in the US, Research Shows

#12

Post by wskinner »

atdrummond wrote: post #10
Madmallard wrote: post #7

I became disabled in 2018. I have accumulated 5 figures in debt already since even while being on Cobra and now Medicare. This is criminal.

Just don’t pay it. I wish I had been told this instead of flushing thousands upon thousands down the toilet in a futile attempt to keep the balance at $0. The system is designed to be adversarial and your best tactic as a patient is to delay, delay, delay and fight every single bill. I have had seven operations for Crohns, a back surgery, and treatment for ongoing Leukaemia. I have lived in a half dozen different jur…

What happens to the typical person’s healthcare costs when some people who consume extremely expensive treatments” just don’t pay”? What is the equilibrium here?

Re: Poverty Is the 4th Leading Cause of Death in the US, Research Shows

#13

Post by Clubber »

I don't see how they made the connection to poverty and mortality. I'm sure there is one, but the fact the article didn't point out the specific cause and effect is disappointing.

The onset of the coronavirus pandemic in 2020 brought about a sharp increase in U.S. poverty as millions of people got sick, were thrown out of work, and lost health insurance.

Are they trying to say that people died during Covid because an increase in poverty and that poverty was the reason for the increase in deaths? What about Covid?

But federal aid initiatives enacted in response to the public health and economic crisis—from stimulus checks to boosted unemployment benefits to enhanced nutrition assistance—ultimately led to a significant drop in poverty, further bolstering the case that "poverty is a policy choice."

Poverty is certainly policy choice to a degree.

Re: Poverty Is the 4th Leading Cause of Death in the US, Research Shows

#14

Post by monetus »

TMWNN wrote: post #11
hunglee2 wrote: post #2

"Poverty, which the study defined as less than half the median U.S. income" I wonder how much of this can be attributed to medical bankruptcy. If you cannot afford insurance, get injured, can't afford treatment...pretty straightforward doom loop to an early grave

>I wonder how much of this can be attributed to medical bankruptcy. Only 4% of US bankruptcies are because of medical bills https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2018/0... >. A tipoff that [insert large percentage here] of bankruptcies aren't actually because of medical costs is that only 6% of bankruptcies by those without health insurance are because of that cause. The biggest cause of bankruptcies…

The extremes are what people will talk about most, for sure; I lived that experience in a state where medicaid wasn't expanded and have trouble shutting up about it. Most everyone around me avoided that experience, almost everyone in my social circles.

Re: Poverty Is the 4th Leading Cause of Death in the US, Research Shows

#15

Post by grammarnazzzi »

Living is the 1st Leading Cause of Death in the US

Research published this week estimated that life was linked to at least 100% of the deaths in the United States in 2019 among people aged 0 or older, making living the nation's number one leading mortality driver that year.

Re: Poverty Is the 4th Leading Cause of Death in the US, Research Shows

#16

Post by qgin »

monetus wrote: post #14
TMWNN wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I wonder how much of this can be attributed to medical bankruptcy. Only 4% of US bankruptcies are because of medical bills https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2018/0... >. A tipoff that [insert large percentage here] of bankruptcies aren't actually because of medical costs is that only 6% of bankruptcies by those without health insurance are because of that cause. The biggest cause of bankruptcies…

The extremes are what people will talk about most, for sure; I lived that experience in a state where medicaid wasn't expanded and have trouble shutting up about it. Most everyone around me avoided that experience, almost everyone in my social circles.

States without medicaid expansion are very rough. Most people don't realize that ACA plans have a minimum income to qualify. Medicaid was supposed to take over below that income level. If you're in Florida or Texas and are an adult who isn't currently pregnant (or have a legally declared disability), and make less than 150% of the federal poverty limit, there is literally no insurance you can get except paying full retail price for a private plan (which would consume about 1/2 of your income in premiums and deductibles).

Re: Poverty Is the 4th Leading Cause of Death in the US, Research Shows

#17

Post by Max-Limelihood »

Are the first 3 causes dying, aging, and poor health? As soon as you start allowing abstract concepts that contribute to a person's death to count as the cause of a person's death, this stops being an especially meaningful statistic. I'd much rather see a calculation of how many years of life are lost, an actually meaningful metric.

Re: Poverty Is the 4th Leading Cause of Death in the US, Research Shows

#18

Post by flangola7 »

wskinner wrote: post #12
atdrummond wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just don’t pay it. I wish I had been told this instead of flushing thousands upon thousands down the toilet in a futile attempt to keep the balance at $0. The system is designed to be adversarial and your best tactic as a patient is to delay, delay, delay and fight every single bill. I have had seven operations for Crohns, a back surgery, and treatment for ongoing Leukaemia. I have lived in a half dozen different jur…

What happens to the typical person’s healthcare costs when some people who consume extremely expensive treatments” just don’t pay”? What is the equilibrium here?

Most likely nothing, medical expenses are no where near at-cost like they should be. Even assuming that they go up, you can't expect anyone not to "consume" medical care. I'm not going to deny someone treatment because it might cost me a few more pennies or dollars, that would be comically villainous.

The equilibrium would be treating medical care as a public good just like highways or firefighting, but insurance companies and hospital-owning equity firms actively expend resources to prevent that.

Re: Poverty Is the 4th Leading Cause of Death in the US, Research Shows

#19

Post by qgin »

wskinner wrote: post #12
atdrummond wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just don’t pay it. I wish I had been told this instead of flushing thousands upon thousands down the toilet in a futile attempt to keep the balance at $0. The system is designed to be adversarial and your best tactic as a patient is to delay, delay, delay and fight every single bill. I have had seven operations for Crohns, a back surgery, and treatment for ongoing Leukaemia. I have lived in a half dozen different jur…

What happens to the typical person’s healthcare costs when some people who consume extremely expensive treatments” just don’t pay”? What is the equilibrium here?

The economics of the system are so convoluted I'm not sure if anyone can answer. There is no equilibrium.

But maybe finding the breaking point would push us to untangle the perverse economics of our current system and do what every other developed country in the world does (and spends less money doing, all total)

Re: Poverty Is the 4th Leading Cause of Death in the US, Research Shows

#20

Post by dmix »

Clubber wrote: post #13

I don't see how they made the connection to poverty and mortality. I'm sure there is one, but the fact the article didn't point out the specific cause and effect is disappointing. The onset of the coronavirus pandemic in 2020 brought about a sharp increase in U.S. poverty as millions of people got sick, were thrown out of work, and lost health insurance. Are they trying to say that people died during Covid because an…

> Poverty is certainly policy choice to a degree.

Housing is probably the biggest cause of poverty directly influenced by (existing) policy.

Zoning alone could result in plenty of reduction in inequality among other stuff like reducing NIMBY power.

I'm curious if now that we have a mountain of half empty offices which don't freely compete with residential development if the implications of zoning is even worse than before. Previously the primary argument was low-density suburban zoning acts in conflict to the free market (https://www.amazon.com/Zoned-Out-Jonathan-Levine/dp/19331151...) which besides giant skyscrapers was the only openly tolerated housing development for the past n* decades.

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