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People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

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Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#391

Post by mthoms »

denton-scratch wrote: post #317
mthoms wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The expression " committing suicide" has those connotations and is considered taboo by some. Maybe that's what you're thinking of? The alternative suggestion is "death by suicide" which is both technically correct and devoid of any implication of criminality/sin. Of course, you're free to think what you want about the word, I'm just relaying something I've read. (I agree with the rest of your point, I just wanted to…

I was alive when attempting suicide was still a crime (obviously, you can't be prosecuted for succeeding!). For me, the word "suicide" has connotations of wrongdoing, like "homicide" and "patricide". Younger generations may not be so aware of those connotations. For me, "commit" doesn't have connotations of wrongdoing, unless it's a matter of a bad commit that breaks the build. "Death by suicide" doesn't name an act;…

Interesting. I'm from the same era and have the opposite opinion. To me the word "commit" implies legality, "death by suicide" seems factual and without judgement.

The Centre for Suicide Prevention seems to agree. Not only in this article (https://www.suicideinfo.ca/local_resource/suicideandlanguage...) but also in their usage of "suicide" in the very name of the organization.

What word would suggest in place of "suicide"?

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#392

Post by dionidium »

cedws wrote: post #103
martindbp wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much easier said than done. I doubt you'll feel the same way when that old age approaches, just like teenagers who think life is practically over by 40.

>just like teenagers who think life is practically over by 40 Sorry but... it kind of is, no? You've probably got a family weighing you down so you can't travel anymore. You don't have the freedom to start new exciting ventures. You can't quit your sucky job because it supports your family. You go to parties that end at 9pm and your social gatherings consist of talking about traffic and grocery prices. You're probabl…

Your implied list of priorities -- travel, interesting parties, etc -- are about as interesting to me now that I'm in my early 40s with a family as an afternoon at a toddler's daycare center probably would be to you. What you're failing to appreciate is that, just as you no longer have toddler interests, I no longer have 22-year-old interests. I am as different from you as you are from that toddler.

And it works the other direction, too. My life probably sounds boring to you in the same way that a day in your life would be boring to a toddler. Now that you're 22, you aren't just a taller version of that toddler with all the same interests. You have new interests. (That will keep happening.)

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#393

Post by drdeca »

fuzzfactor wrote: post #358
2-718-281-828 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

people seek alcohol in pathological amounts to numb a pain they carry around. you don't know what pain that was for him and what caused it. not everybody stumbles into alcoholism out of habit, partying too much or work related stress.

I'm no doctor but I know they seldom have actual pharmaceutical cures , however they can often provide worthwhile treatments which are very effective and truly make life more worth living. Not always through medication. Sometimes things work out for the best without doctors involved, also with medication or not. I just have a lifetime of working (as carefully as possible to minimize harmful exposure) with very toxic…

How are you defining “drug”? Or, I guess maybe I should be asking “how is ‘drug’ defined in the field which is the context that your statement that it doesn’t make sense to classify alcohol as a ‘drug’?” if you are using a standard definition like that?

I think I’ve heard that the word pharmakon can be translated as any of [poison, medicine, drug, paint]? That’s I guess not really relevant, but I wanted to mention it because all 4 of those translations seem relevant to your comment, and this amused me.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#394

Post by anonymouskimmer »

robotresearcher wrote: post #386
anonymouskimmer wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For people without that view, why would they be biased? - Fear of pain - Fear of old age, or aging in general - Fear of debility - Fear of loss of autonomy - Desire for liberty to do what they want without input from others who may be affected by their decisions Most people don't opine on issues unless they feel strongly about them. A strong feeling is a bias. There are few scientific parameters on the issues of su…

Those sound like views you have arrived at by your own consideration, and not things that would cause you to discuss the topic dogmatically.

Bias does not necessitate dogmatism. I've read at least one non-dogmatic Catholic priest on suicide.

There's just nothing "scientific" about these sorts of opinions, though, from either side.

Edit to add: I was taking the term "dogmatic" as the colloquial usage. There are ideas about freedom, suffering, and the role of government or physicians that are effectively secular dogmas pertinent to assisted suicide. And many Catholics have personal (non-dogmatic) reasons for their beliefs. Even strong believers pick and choose which parts of religious dogma they find authoritative.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#396

Post by wahnfrieden »

midnightblue wrote: post #366
bluescrn wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that more or less compassionate than leaving them to die on the streets?

How about not letting them die on the streets? I thought Canada was a society.

Same country that took a 65 -> 67 retirement age increase in stride as reasonable process without a peep of a fight against it.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#397

Post by JohnBooty »

Delk wrote: post #368
JohnBooty wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in my 40s and felt the same way as you (more or less) at 22. Many people do wind up as you describe. On the other hand you write as if it is inevitable rather than a specific choice. You've probably got a family weighing you down so you can't travel anymore. You don't have the freedom to start new exciting ventures. Yes, you probably do have to choose between "family" and the other stuff unless you have some unus…

> Again, you can just not get married! Or do some kind of poly/open/whatever relationship if that's your thing. Or be asexual. Or be so undesirable that nobody wants to nestle down with you and saddle you with a family. Or just find some sort of ethical way of getting what you need from sex workers. (That last one may be tricky) IMO any of those can be tricky. Relationships in general are, at any part of the spectrum…

    But trying to make it out as everything being  
    possible and choices that you can just make 
    feels a bit like it can trivialize the difficulty 
    of actually doing it.
Well, you're certainly right: no relationship options are easy.

When I listed those options I was specifically referring to the parent poster, who equated middle age with automatically being in a stifling marriage.... as if marriage is just some inevitable thing that happens to you, rather than something you choose.

Which was certainly not to imply that the alternatives to marriage are easy. I mean yeah, relationships can be hard. And the lack of one can be hard too.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#398

Post by royaltjames »

I am just pulling out of this. In the moment of crisis, it's a blend of all things. When I am financially, physically, nutritionally, hygienically needs met the symptoms of dysfunction are in remission.

But I am struggling to find work so it's a vicious cycle.

Life is brutal: I'm rooting for anyone who knows the struggle.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#399

Post by JohnBooty »

inconceivable wrote: post #179
cedws wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>just like teenagers who think life is practically over by 40 Sorry but... it kind of is, no? You've probably got a family weighing you down so you can't travel anymore. You don't have the freedom to start new exciting ventures. You can't quit your sucky job because it supports your family. You go to parties that end at 9pm and your social gatherings consist of talking about traffic and grocery prices. You're probabl…

i'm 40 and i live like a rich 16 year old with no adult supervision. peter pan syndrome is always an option. anyway, here's your real problem. you might want to figure out which older people in your life are poisoning your mind with their bullshit. having a family, or not, can be great and is always your choice. miserable people end up that way because they're living someone else's dream, not their own. https://en.wi…

Of the many, many sibling comments: this is by far my favorite.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#400

Post by JohnBooty »

rrgok wrote: post #343
argiopetech wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a valid life choice, of course, and you're free to make it. I'd not call it "perfect", though (and neither is choosing to have kids). It's all a matter of which trade-offs you prefer. I like children, desire to pass my genes to the future, value the ability to raise my children to have an impact on the world somewhat in line with my perception of it (commensurate on their natural predilection to agree with me an…

I'm sorry, maybe other people said the same thing. I didn't read the whole thread yet. I'm gonna pick you and the line "desire to pass my genes to the future". I'm gonna ask you some genuine questions about it, so please if you can I would appreciate your point of view. What is this desire, how does it feel? I've never felt it. Is it a thought process or do you feel it in your body? (like hunger, sexual attraction...…

We made the choice not to have children, but I do feel that desire to pass on my genes. What's it like?

   sexual desire is like taking a piss
I would say it's less of a basic biological desire like peeing or sneezing, and more like... esoteric/abstract concepts like "the desire to do good" or "the desire to achieve."

I realize it's not really a logical desire, and even though I do feel it, it's far from my highest priority and I've also chosen not to have kids for a variety of other reasons.

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