Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A digital payments revolution in India

economist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 179 posts

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#121

Post by rippercushions »

Carioca wrote: post #30
lucasfcosta wrote: post #12

As a note, this is slightly incorrect: > The Indian model is inspiring others. Brazil’s Pix, which facilitates bank-to-bank payments with a small fee, was launched in November 2020. It now accounts for some 30% of Brazil’s electronic payments (credit and debit cards take up around 20% each) In fact, Pix is free, which is the main reason why the Brazilian population adopted it so widely and so quickly. Before Pix, you…

Nitpick: Pix is free between people. Companies pay ~1% of the transaction

Nope, on average 0.22%.

https://www.reuters.com/article/brazil-cenbank-pix-idUSL2N2V...

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#122

Post by sifar »

ta7789 wrote: post #84

People seem to have a general distrust about the Indian government and the UPI system. There are certainly a lot of conspiracy theories floating around. The plain idea of UPI is that it is publicly funded digital infrastructure. The US has networks such as Mastercard, Visa, etc. These are privately run digital infrastructure that facilitate digital payments. UPI is publicly funded digital infrastructure. AFAIK it is…

>> The plain idea of UPI is that it is publicly funded digital infrastructure

UPI is developed by NPCI which is a consortium of Indian banks (public and private), supported by RBI[0]. It is a not-for profit, but not publicly funded.

The fees are lower right now since they want to proliferate the use and get a monopoly over Visa/Mastercard. Once done, expect them to be at par. They just added some fees this march [1].

The distrust is not conspiracy theories but common sense when you observe how other entities have behaved previously.

[0] www.npci.org.in [1] https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/blexplainer/interchange...

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#123

Post by rippercushions »

elijaht wrote: post #114
vivegi wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The digital payments infrastructure in India has done more to bring more people into the banking system than what was possible earlier. It is pervasive, ubiquitous and very user friendly. This is all thanks to the mobile data revolution ushered in by the telecoms companies in India over the last decade and a half. Yes, data privacy is a larger issue that needs to be addressed in India, but that is no different than o…

How many hours a week was the average person spending driving to get cash?

During the rupee demonetization a few years back, getting cash required queueing up for hours. About the only silver lining of that whole debacle was the boost it gave to digital payments, because cash was so broken.

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#124

Post by cppenjoyer »

new2yc wrote: post #102
twoclicksnorth wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Indian Govt. has already shown their intentions in their parliament. Running Payment infrastructure have a cost for banks. somebody has to pay for it though taxes or fees. > RBI has became a puppet of it (shown by their actions time and time). They tried getting judiciary (SC) but couldn't get it this time. RBI is central bank. Its a statutory institution that is answerable to Elected Govt what are you expectin…

> Running Payment infrastructure have a cost for banks. somebody has to pay for it though taxes or fees. Then don't hail UPI as a universal payments alternate, its just another interface; in long lines of PayPal, Stripe, etc. and still behind. > RBI is a statutory institution that is answerable to Elected Govt what are you expecting? It has (in paper) authority, independence, and accountability to 'manage all banks',…

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/blexplainer/interchange...

> Currently, MDR for bank-to-bank UPI transactions is zero. Introduction of MDRs on all UPI merchant (P2M) transactions seems unlikely at the moment as the government has maintained that UPI is a ‘public good’ and that it does not plan to introduce charges on UPI transactions. However, loading of wallets for UPI transactions could cost more if wallet issuers decide to pass on the 15 bps interchange required to be paid to remitter banks for loads of over ₹2,000.

Didn't look too much into it, but I think it means that these charges are only applicable on PPI wallets.

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#125

Post by ta_vf7xjd34cc »

realityking wrote: post #120
ta7789 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, the US government has a long tradition of weaponizing US Dollar and SWIFT to cut off countries from global trade. This is a fact that has been happening ever since the petrodollar was invented. Governments all over the world, especially India, have realized this is a big vulnerability and a threat to their country's sovereignty. India, Brazil and several countries across the world have invested in their o…

> For those who don't know India has been on the receiving end of US sanctions for a variety of reasons. According to wikipedia[0] there‘s only ever been two sanctions against India by the US. A short lived one from 98-99 because of a nuclear ban and a much longer one from 92-2011 related to the space program/missile development. A quick search didn‘t turn up any current US sanctions either. Were there more sanctions…

> A quick search didn‘t turn up any current US sanctions either.

The US and Indian governments have had bad relations for a long time. The US has the habit of weaponizing anything and everything. While not exactly sanctions, people don't forget things like PL480[1] that easily:

> Many of us still have hurtful memories of the mid-'60s when, after two successive years of savage drought, India desperately needed American wheat under the US Public Law 480 on rupee payment — and at relatively low prices because the country had no foreign exchange to buy food in the world market. Indira Gandhi had just become prime minister and chose to go to Washington on an official visit. Lyndon Johnson gave her a gushing welcome and responded to the food problem confronting her effusively, promising as many as 10 million tons of PL480 wheat. However, at an early stage the transaction turned sour.

> Infuriated by India's criticism of American bombings of Hanoi and Haiphong in the course of the Vietnam War, the irascible Texan put food shipments on such a tight leash that India literally lived from ship to mouth. With every morsel we swallowed a little humiliation. When told that the Indians were saying exactly the same thing as the UN Secretary-General and the Pope were, Johnson had retorted: "The Pope and the Secretary-General do not need our wheat."

[1] Swallowing the humiliation (http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/swallowing-the-humilia...)

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#126

Post by martyvis »

rnjailamba wrote: post #118
toomuchtodo wrote: post #4

India: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface Brazil: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pix_(payment_system) US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FedNow

Singapore: FAST - https://www.abs.org.sg/consumer-banking/fast Thailand: PromptPay - https://www.bangkokbank.com/en/Personal/Digital-Banking/Prom... Australia: NPP - https://www.rba.gov.au/payments-and-infrastructure/new-payme... Hong Kong: FPS - https://www.hkma.gov.hk/eng/smart-consumers/faster-payment-s... Philippines: InstaPay - https://www.instapayph.com/ Mexico: CoDI - https://www.codi.org.mx/ Indonesia: BI-FAS…

NPP is fantastic. (Often referred to as PayID, Fast Payment or Osko, depending on your bank here in Australia). Last Friday I was able to buy an item from a friend while we both standing in his driveway - he confirmed the payment on his account. He just provided his BSB (6 digit bank number) and account and I did the transfer. We both use non major banks. I have used it to settle split bills with colleagues after lunches. Usually you just link your mobile number or email address. All without bank fees or going anywhere near Visa, MasterCard or Paypal and confirmed in under a minute.

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#127

Post by theWreckluse »

sifar wrote: post #122
ta7789 wrote: post #84

People seem to have a general distrust about the Indian government and the UPI system. There are certainly a lot of conspiracy theories floating around. The plain idea of UPI is that it is publicly funded digital infrastructure. The US has networks such as Mastercard, Visa, etc. These are privately run digital infrastructure that facilitate digital payments. UPI is publicly funded digital infrastructure. AFAIK it is…

>> The plain idea of UPI is that it is publicly funded digital infrastructure UPI is developed by NPCI which is a consortium of Indian banks (public and private), supported by RBI[0]. It is a not-for profit, but not publicly funded. The fees are lower right now since they want to proliferate the use and get a monopoly over Visa/Mastercard. Once done, expect them to be at par. They just added some fees this march [1].…

Can you please provide references/sources for the last statement.

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#128

Post by alephnerd »

sifar wrote: post #122
ta7789 wrote: post #84

People seem to have a general distrust about the Indian government and the UPI system. There are certainly a lot of conspiracy theories floating around. The plain idea of UPI is that it is publicly funded digital infrastructure. The US has networks such as Mastercard, Visa, etc. These are privately run digital infrastructure that facilitate digital payments. UPI is publicly funded digital infrastructure. AFAIK it is…

>> The plain idea of UPI is that it is publicly funded digital infrastructure UPI is developed by NPCI which is a consortium of Indian banks (public and private), supported by RBI[0]. It is a not-for profit, but not publicly funded. The fees are lower right now since they want to proliferate the use and get a monopoly over Visa/Mastercard. Once done, expect them to be at par. They just added some fees this march [1].…

> It is a not-for profit, but not publicly funded.

That's a bit disingenuous.

51-55% of NPCI's ownership is the RBI and PSU Banks (operated by Ministry of Finance) [0], so in reality it's a public private partnership between the Ministry of Finance and Private Sector banks.

A good comparison to the NPCI would probably be the Federal Reserve system in the US, but NPCI is a bit more autarkic.

[0] - https://www.npci.org.in/PDF/npci/corporate-governance/shareh...

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#129

Post by alephnerd »

fnord77 wrote: post #18

sounds like the exact opposite of crypto

Yep, and it's actually useful for unbanked people.

It's essentially a digitized version of Postal Saving Systems [0] that were traditionally common in Central and Eastern Europe.

Tbf, a lot of the thought leadership done to design UPI+IndiaStack was done by people with an actual background in Developmental Economics+Banking at JPAL (MIT+Harvard), FSI (Stanford), and BFI (UChicago).

A lot of Policy Advising in India+China+ASEAN is done by alumni of those 3 programs.

[0] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_savings_system

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#130

Post by chupchap »

devnull3 wrote: post #119

As a big fan of UPI, I have a concern if people became too much dependent on it. What happens when there is a power outage for extended period of time (due to war, natural calamity, grid failure, etc)? Most shops in India do not have backup power provisioned.

In such a scenario only cash works.
Post reply on HN