Transistor is scaling, for now. SRAM is not! TSMC N3E SRAM density is equal to N5 SRAM density. This is something of an inflection point. https://www.tomshardware.com/news/no-sram-scaling-implies-on...
I believe this report by WikiChip from IEDM 2022 is an accurate summary of the situation: > While there were a great number of interesting papers from both academia and industry, it was the one by TSMC that brought frighteningly bad news: whereas logic is still scaling more-or-less along the historical trendline, SRAM scaling appears to have completely collapsed. https://fuse.wikichip.org/news/7343/iedm-2022-did-we-j…
Ask HN: Is Moore's Law over, or not?
81–90 of 94 posts
Re: Ask HN: Is Moore's Law over, or not?
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why do you feel the need to appeal to authority here? Moore's law states that the number of transistors on a chip doubles every two years. Looking at the data[0] confirms, yes, Moore's law is still alive. [0]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Moore%27...
It's true that Moore's original claim was about number of transistors and not about any actual metric of performance. But "number of transistors" is like "number of lines of code": it's a cost , not a benefit , and if it feels otherwise it's only because that cost is the cost we have to pay for some benefit we care about. And the claim that's increasingly commonly made these days isn't "transistor density has stopped…
Re: Ask HN: Is Moore's Law over, or not?
#83Let's measure transistor in a chip without caring about die size, so you can just use a larger die size measurement to keep the Moore's Law narrative alive. Well at some point that wont work because your maximum die size is still ~840mm2 due to reticle limit.
Then what? There is Chiplet, or what about you package all the die together using CoWos or EMIB? Yep. More transistor per "Chip" because the definition of Chip just changed for Die to multi die.
Or finally another media narrative, or Intel, AMD' PR or even how Jim Keller uses it. Any continuous improvement in transistor density per mm2 is consider as following Moore's law.
>So what's the consensus around here?
Generally speaking HN is very poor source of information on anything Hardware. I would use any consensus on HN as final say on the subject.
Re: Ask HN: Is Moore's Law over, or not?
#84I think it's worth mentioning, that "Moore's Law" is not actually a "law". It's just an observation of a historical trend. Moore posited in 1965 that the the amount of transistor per chip will roughly double every year - something he himself called "a wild extrapolation" in a later interview. Actual development speed proved slower than that, so in 1975 he revised his prediction to transistors doubling every two years…
Re: Ask HN: Is Moore's Law over, or not?
#85I think it's worth mentioning, that "Moore's Law" is not actually a "law". It's just an observation of a historical trend. Moore posited in 1965 that the the amount of transistor per chip will roughly double every year - something he himself called "a wild extrapolation" in a later interview. Actual development speed proved slower than that, so in 1975 he revised his prediction to transistors doubling every two years…
A law is something which is observed to be true. We're not talking about a legal law/rule that's enforced. In that sense it's one and the same.
Re: Ask HN: Is Moore's Law over, or not?
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's true that Moore's original claim was about number of transistors and not about any actual metric of performance. But "number of transistors" is like "number of lines of code": it's a cost , not a benefit , and if it feels otherwise it's only because that cost is the cost we have to pay for some benefit we care about. And the claim that's increasingly commonly made these days isn't "transistor density has stopped…
You're looking for Koomey's Law, which is a different concept than Moore's law.
Moore's law, strictly, is about the growth of transistor density. Koomey's law, strictly, is about the improvement in computation per unit energy.
Those are both interesting, but frequently people care about something different from either, which is something like "computation per second available in hardware of reasonable size, power consumption and cost". Call this "effective performance".
This can increase even if Moore fails (e.g., we find good ways to exploit parallelism, and build larger devices with more cores). It can fail to increase even if Moore holds (e.g., we can put more cores on a device of the same size, but we aren't good enough at exploiting parallelism so real performance doesn't improve).
It can increase even if Koomey fails (e.g., we find ways to make our hardware faster; there's a corresponding increase in power consumption but we are still able to cool things well enough so we just accept that). It can fail to increase even if Koomey holds (e.g., we can't make anything faster but we find a way to maintain existing speeds at lower power; very nice but no performance improvement unless power consumption is the current bottleneck).
It used to be that effective performance increased exponentially at a fairly consistent rate. This increase has slowed but not stopped; it's not obvious (to me, anyway) what we should expect it to do in the nearish future.
The consistent exponential increase in effective performance had a name, in popular discourse. It was called "Moore's law". It's unfortunate that strictly speaking it isn't what Moore was originally describing, leading to an ambiguity when people refer to "Moore's law" between a law about density and a law about effective performance.
(I unfortunately lack the ability to read minds, so I can't be sure what OP had in mind. But given the statement that "it has big implications for the advancement of AI technology", it looks to me more like effective performance than density.)
Re: Ask HN: Is Moore's Law over, or not?
#87https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/1000/9...
Re: Ask HN: Is Moore's Law over, or not?
#88General purpose CPUs can only get so good. With that said, there are still many advancements that can be made to shrink die sizes and/or shove more transistors more closely together (3D is hard due to heat… but…). I’m excited about photon-based processors, but until that’s a reality we still have a ton of headway for application-specific scaling. If you rip specific loops out of a general purpose CPU, there are still…
> General purpose CPUs can only get so good People claimed this - “single core is over” - years ago when Intel was stuck doing Skylake refreshes and AMD’s Ryzen only matched the older Haswell CPUs.
A general-purpose CPU requires that a program is transformed (via compilation or interpretation) into a set of basic instructions, ones that the processor knows how to handle. This means that almost every program requires many cycles to complete, even if the underlying logic itself could theoretically be done within a single cycle (or within no cycle at all!).
On the other end of the spectrum are FPGAs and ASICs, programmable or dedicated circuits that allow you to create specialized logic that corresponds directly to a specific need.
Bringing this back to the discussion at hand: Moore's law cares nothing about general-purpose CPUS, and is just focused on number of transistors on an IC doubling. With that said, transistors can only get so small (due to the laws of physics), and so one can presume we'll see an end to scaling eventually.
There are changes we can make to improve general-purpose CPU architecture, regardless of transistor count, and there are changes we can make to how we run programs (moving dedicated logic to dedicated circuits). Forcing any logic into a generic set of steps that run a in a loop will always be less efficient than wiring up the logic itself.
The questions has always been whether to wait for the machine to get faster or to create the dedicated logic yourself. The former has been true since the beginning of computation, and has been closely associated with Moore's law. With that said, it doesn't mean that the literal end of Moore's law is the end of computational efficiency gains.
Re: Ask HN: Is Moore's Law over, or not?
#89Earlier today on HN there was a submission about great CPU stagnation. In the blog post was an interesting link: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/karlrupp/microprocessor-tr... This graph to me show that while yes technically Moore's law of doubling transistor per "thing Intel or AMD sells you" is still holding, it has ended for single threaded workloads. Moore's law is only holding due to core count increase. For ev…
>Writing amazing programs taking full advantage of the core count increase is simply impossible (see Amdahl's law). So even if one wanted to rearchitect programs to take full advantage of the overall transistor count from ~2005 to now, they won't be able to. I don]t think that's the goal right now, though - it's about parallelizing multiple separate tasks/programs/etc: IOW, you can run 50 applications on a single 64…
Re: Ask HN: Is Moore's Law over, or not?
#90Earlier today on HN there was a submission about great CPU stagnation. In the blog post was an interesting link: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/karlrupp/microprocessor-tr... This graph to me show that while yes technically Moore's law of doubling transistor per "thing Intel or AMD sells you" is still holding, it has ended for single threaded workloads. Moore's law is only holding due to core count increase. For ev…
> Writing amazing programs taking full advantage of the core count increase is simply impossible (see Amdahl's law) I don't see this as true at all, using Wikipedias example - "a program needs 20 hours to complete using a single thread, but a one-hour portion of the program cannot be parallelized, therefore only the remaining 19 hours execution time can be parallelized, then regardless of how many threads the minimum…
Yeah, sure. Just give up on the thing you wanted to do and instead do something entirely different that is more parallelizable. That'll keep your CPU utilization high, but it won't actually accomplish your goal (presuming you were using software for some purpose other than maximizing CPU utilization).