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People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

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Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#281

Post by harimau777 »

cedws wrote: post #103
martindbp wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much easier said than done. I doubt you'll feel the same way when that old age approaches, just like teenagers who think life is practically over by 40.

>just like teenagers who think life is practically over by 40 Sorry but... it kind of is, no? You've probably got a family weighing you down so you can't travel anymore. You don't have the freedom to start new exciting ventures. You can't quit your sucky job because it supports your family. You go to parties that end at 9pm and your social gatherings consist of talking about traffic and grocery prices. You're probabl…

I see it almost the exact opposite. I'm in my early 30s without a wife or kids and I feel like my life is basically over because of it.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#282

Post by aeturnum »

denton-scratch wrote: post #163

The article is heavily focused on how to prevent suicide. They note that suicide is sometimes rational (they call it "existential", euphemistically). I'm all for removing the causes of people wanting to die. But if people have any rights at all, the right to decide when and how you die seems to be the most fundamental. It seems to be almost impossible nowadays to obtain the kinds of drugs (basically, barbiturates) th…

IMO this is correct - an implication of the inherent worthiness of each human and each of our rights to self determination is that people get to make choices about their lives (including this kind of choice).

I have always approached the morality of this question as: how should other people in the life of someone who is convinced they want to die act? It's clearly possible they are suffering from a temporary set of conditions that will pass - it's also possible that they are making a sad but accurate judgement about what they would prefer under the circumstances. The former is much more common but to ignore the later cuts you off from connecting to and helping people who are struggling. I actually quite like the disease understanding of suicidality - like other diseases we should do our best to treat it and give comfort to the afflicted, and we should work to recognize when the case is too advanced and we should switch to palliative care.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#283

Post by argiopetech »

sgjohnson wrote: post #175
argiopetech wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you've done it right, by 40 you have children. If you've raised them right, they're fun to be with. Even if you haven't, they require enough out of you that you want to go to bed by 9. Social gatherings are about spending time with other families and letting your children play. Your partner is a collaborative team member in a complex dance, and while the passion for that person is not as fiery as the lust-fueled e…

> If you've done it right, by 40 you have children. It’s also perfectly okay to not have children.

It's a valid life choice, of course, and you're free to make it. I'd not call it "perfect", though (and neither is choosing to have kids). It's all a matter of which trade-offs you prefer.

I like children, desire to pass my genes to the future, value the ability to raise my children to have an impact on the world somewhat in line with my perception of it (commensurate on their natural predilection to agree with me and act on that agreement), and want somebody to look after me and my affairs in my old age. I'm willing to accept the cost (in time, money, stress, reduced flexibility...) and responsibility in return. If you make the decision not to have kids, I hope you can say the same for your trade-offs.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#284

Post by joewferrara »

rcpt wrote: post #277

“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high…

This is pretty good considering the fact that David Foster Wallace took his own life in the end. I read the whole quote before I saw at the end it’s from him.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#285

Post by anonymouskimmer »

denton-scratch wrote: post #279
anonymouskimmer wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mostly the opposition to enabling killing yourself is ideological, and seems to be particularly prevalent among people with strong religious opinions. Kevin Yuill is an atheist. If you want the non-religious argument against state-sanctioned suicide read him (though, of course, as an individual he doesn't cover every anti-euthanasia atheist's point of view). I'm sorry for your particular situation.

> non-religious argument against state-sanctioned suicide I don't like the word "suicide" at all. It has strong connotations of sin and criminality. The phrase "state-sanctioned suicide" implies that the state has active involvement in someone taking their own life. What I'm talking about is the state not actively interfering to make it hard for someone to decide for themself how and when they die. "My particular sit…

Suicide literally just means killing oneself: https://www.etymonline.com/word/suicide

The connotations of sin and criminality are in the eye of the beholder.

> What I'm talking about is the state not actively interfering to make it hard for someone to decide for themself how and when they die.

But it does by regulating it. By deciding which suicides, or requests for euthanasia[1] are legitimate, and which aren't. If there were no barriers or gatekeeping in place a large chunk of the populace would kill themselves as teenagers.

[1]- incidentally, the word "euthanasia" strikes terror and horror in me. I much prefer suicide, as the grammatical locus of control is on the person killing themself, not some amorphous other.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#287

Post by mthoms »

mschuster91 wrote: post #193
vanviegen wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In others, like this one[0], I find it doubly tragic, as there are proven alternative solutions "eight years of help and 21 stints in rehab" sounds like they tried pretty hard to find a better solution. Not everyone can be cured.

> "eight years of help and 21 stints in rehab" sounds like they tried pretty hard to find a better solution. First step towards that would be to ditch Anonymous Alcoholics and other religious cult-based "rehabs".

I'm a staunch atheist and was also very cynical about this too. That is, until I attended several of these meetings in support of a friend.

The intensity of the religious aspect probably varies depending on where you live but what I observed was pretty minor and wasn't at all offensive.

The two people I know who have been helped by AA are happy and healthy now.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#288

Post by s1artibartfast »

Der_Einzige wrote: post #269
s1artibartfast wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is more than just loss of communities, although that is a big part of it. It is also a hallowing out of the human experience and the inability to enjoy simple pleasures available to anyone alive. Consumerism is so deeply entrenched in the minds of people that they usually blame their unhappiness on a lack of material goods and external factors. Meanwhile, There are millions or billions of people who can fi…

Mental illness and mental issues are systemically underdiagnoaed in the third world. I do not believe for a single second that third worlders have better mental health than first worlders. The average third worlders has seen ultra traumatic experiences that simply do not happen to the average first worlder.

I do think that third worlders have better mental health than first worlders with respect to depression.

Different people respond in wildly different ways to hardship and trauma. The difference in outcome between two people is internal, not circumstance. It is impossible that it could be otherwise when you some people have experienced the worst the world has to offer and are relatively happy, while some others have experienced the best and are suicidal.

Furthermore, know that the same people can be depressed or happy despite the same material external circumstances, depending on their outlook.

Depression especially hinges on mental perspective, perspective, and conditioning. It stands to reason that this could vary culturally and geographically for many reasons.

It would be absolutely unethical, but I think you could raise two sets of children to be more depressed or happy with the same material quality of life. Raise one group telling them they are helpless, worthless, and that the world is a terrible place. Tell them that you will give them riches and always disappoint them. Take the other and teach them to have low expectations but enjoy simple pleasures. Equip them with cognitive tools to deal with the challenges of life and disappointment in healthy ways. Do you think you would see a difference between the two groups?

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#289

Post by d0gsg0w00f »

throwawayadvsec wrote: post #129
vanviegen wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In others, like this one[0], I find it doubly tragic, as there are proven alternative solutions "eight years of help and 21 stints in rehab" sounds like they tried pretty hard to find a better solution. Not everyone can be cured.

The first step would be to understand that rehab is not the solution to any kind of problem. Rehab is about making a lot of money, not healing people, they benefit from relapsing, they have zero incentive to help people.

Cleaning houses is about making money too. Eventually you're going to be ready to keep the house clean after they leave.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#290

Post by mthoms »

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #235
coldtea wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's connected though, when assisted suicide there, is not just legal, but increasingly accepted, nornalized, or even encouraged as an invididual solution to not having a safety net. So, the cause of the problem isn't the suicides - but they are offered (and used) as a way-out of it. This eases the burden on the state to do something to solve the root problem (why improve their condition, when they just off themselve…

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/woman-with-chemical-sensitivit... > Woman with chemical sensitivities chose medically-assisted death after failed bid to get better housing https://www.liveaction.org/news/euthanasia-unjust-social-con... > a recent poll found that 27 percent of Canadians polled strongly or moderately agree that euthanasia is acceptable for suffering caused by “poverty” and 28 percent strongly or moderate…

While this case is indeed controversial and worthy of examining... I'm sceptical of "liveaction.org" as a source because it describes itself thusly: "Live Action News is pro-life news and commentary from a pro-life perspective."

Nothing wrong with that of course, but I'd hardly consider it an authoritative source.

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