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A digital payments revolution in India

economist.com

101–110 of 179 posts

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#101
post #84

People seem to have a general distrust about the Indian government and the UPI system. There are certainly a lot of conspiracy theories floating around. The plain idea of UPI is that it is publicly funded digital infrastructure. The US has networks such as Mastercard, Visa, etc. These are privately run digital infrastructure that facilitate digital payments. UPI is publicly funded digital infrastructure. AFAIK it is…

The fact that it's public infrastructure and has no transaction fees is the source of much of the negative press.

Both Mastercard and Visa went complaining to the US govt about UPI and RuPay because they foresee their duopoly ending.

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#102
post #56

[flagged]

> The Indian Govt. has already shown their intentions in their parliament. Running Payment infrastructure have a cost for banks. somebody has to pay for it though taxes or fees. > RBI has became a puppet of it (shown by their actions time and time). They tried getting judiciary (SC) but couldn't get it this time. RBI is central bank. Its a statutory institution that is answerable to Elected Govt what are you expectin…

> Running Payment infrastructure have a cost for banks. somebody has to pay for it though taxes or fees.

Then don't hail UPI as a universal payments alternate, its just another interface; in long lines of PayPal, Stripe, etc. and still behind.

> RBI is a statutory institution that is answerable to Elected Govt what are you expecting?

It has (in paper) authority, independence, and accountability to 'manage all banks', set policy/interest rates, and maintain financial stability across all nations; practically butchered by the FC. I expect that they don't. Answerable? More like a puppet. Hypocrisy: Miss out a few EMIs on your home/car loan and see what happens. Big names (Modi, Mallya, etc.) have dues of thousands of crores, what's up with that? Just leave India and you are free?

> Supreme court regularly oversteps its limits and plays govt

SC can't (and don't) oversteps its limits -- it does what it has power to do so and it has finite written specifications on what it can and cannot do (the constitution). SC can't play govt. It keeps a check on the govt. Who keeps check on the govt. then? Media? Public? Freedom of speech? Why did the Law da minister (Kiren Rijiju) gets removed by the upper management? The biggest disadvantage of a highly majority won govt. (& weak opposition) made them fascists.

> This wouldn't affect poor at all.

Absolutely, because poor don't use UPI at all. To middle-class, it will. example: street vendor (food/veggies/general store): a monthly customer will always go above 2k (1% of 2k is 20 INR - straight to govt. which was previously zero). How would you track 69 transactions of > Cryptocurrencies are a grift and Govt is right to ban it.

Thanks for showing your non-technical background and illiteracy toward cryptocurrencies. And, 'grift' is not the word you are looking for.

> gov has done a good job as far as fiscal health and Currency stability

Good fiscal health? Just look at numbers of fiscal deficits, increasing debts, declining revenue collections, etc. Inflation, taxes, and interest rates on end-users are on all time high. RBI saying good fiscal health, okay. FDI, which current regime opposed back in UPA govt., has become a better source of income for current government. CMs can be seen begging to foreign investors every now and then. Import duty on electronics from China/Taiwan/Korea/Japan is all time high, and so is their usage (costing only public). This 40% import duty backfiring progress at least a decade, Apple just now has one store in entire India. EVs (Tesla) refused to come to India, till now. Don't count progress that could have been years ago. Agriculture sector has reduced to Currency stability? Refers to the ability of a currency to maintain its value or exchange rate over time. Compared to US (20 years), its down 49% and currently along sides of all time highs. Don't argue me on whataboutism here. For rapidly developing countries (e.g. India), it should be negative ideally.

You caught me on a good mood this weekend. Constructive criticisms. No violence.

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#103
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use UPI daily. 1. In scenarios where UPI is replacing a cash transaction e.g., purchasing fruits from a fruit vendor on the street (just did it a few hours ago), the transaction is immediate. Disputes are settled exactly as how it would be done with a cash transaction i.e., discuss and settle with the vendor in situ. India had a separate settlement mechanism called Cash-On-Delivery that was needed for companies lik…

I don’t dispute most of what you say. I’ll only say that you’re a little optimistic re (3) and (4). Speak to regular (not well connected) people who’ve been through the justice system. It’s not pretty. But then maybe you’re lucky enough to live in a state with super responsive police and courts. After all, a lot of this stuff is a state subject and can vary by state. But the stories of hellish experiences seem to com…

I agree with your statement above. UPI is looking at also getting credit card accounts linked to the NPCI/UPI network in the future. NPCI itself is trying to push RuPay as an alternative to Visa/Mastercard for domestic card payments.

So, a subtle difference from a payment stack perspective is that the consumer protection offered by credit cards is not necessarily a payment stack functionality but a feature of the credit card (just as credit and loyalty points etc., are a function of the credit card).

It is just a slighly different design goal and honestly most users of UPI are okay with it because they favor the cash-replacement offered by UPI.

I will say this though -- the ease of use in UPI is so smooth that if users fail to double check the QR code they have scanned (actually the UPI virtual address) with the vendor and confirm that it is indeed their account (I do it every time), there is a possibility of hackers diverting the funds at the point-of-sale through the use of fake QR codes. This risk is similar to skimming devices installed on PoS machines/ATM machines to steal credit card data.

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#104
The article repeats a claim discussed by https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/03056244.2019.16... "that ‘access to the Kenyan mobile money system M-PESA increased per capita consumption levels and lifted 194,000 households, or 2% of Kenyan households, out of poverty’ (Suri and Jack 2016, 1288). It is no exaggeration to say that this article and its specific poverty reduction claim have electrified the international development community."

"If Suri and Jack’s claims are broadly verifiable, then here we have one of the most important anti-poverty interventions of recent history. Anyone concerned with addressing global poverty, including the current authors, should be very happy indeed. However, extreme caution is warranted. This is because the recent history of the international development community is, unfortunately, littered with claims of miraculous poverty-reducing policy interventions, a great many of which are then shown at a later date to be quite ineffective"

The authors critique the M-PESA claims on six grounds:

* Impact of exit not discussed: "while it is relatively easy to provide financial and other stimuli to encourage certain groups to move into petty entrepreneurship, if there is no commensurate increase in local demand at the same time then the zero-sum end result is simply the redistribution of local demand among a larger number of market participants"

* Impact of displacement ignored: "There is [...] no attempt to compare the outcomes of those households managing to establish or expand a tiny retail business with the help of M-Pesa, and those households in the same community that have no engagement with M-Pesa but are already in possession of, and therefore survive because of, a tiny retail business."

* Rising over-indebtedness in Kenya: "they choose to measure specific household increases in incomes and savings attributable to M-Pesa, but fail to calculate the impact of the wider (but gradual) increases in debt also attributable to M-Pesa. Over-indebtedness has been rising to dangerous levels in almost all parts of the global South where access to microcredit has been facilitated by the international development community"

* Accumulation by dispossession: "as of 2018, the ownership of M-Pesa resides with the Kenya-registered company, Safaricom. [... which] is today 40% owned by the UK multinational Vodafone plc [...] [Safaricom] alone accounts for a massive 40% of the total stock market valuation on the Nairobi securities exchange"

* Wealthy versus poor networks: "the increase in consumption they observe could simply result from wealth being passed along fin-tech-enabled linkages to others in the same family or social circle or class."

* Flawed impact evaluation methodology: "M-Pesa agents, just as with other financial units seeking profit elsewhere in Africa, are well known for proliferating in wealthier urban areas where there are more opportunities to obtain large client numbers and wealthier clients, the combination of which is more likely to generate higher financial returns"

The authors conclude: "There is little doubt that fin-tech has the potential to liberate enormous value. The digital finance sector has been expanding at a mind-boggling rate from China to Southeast Asia, from Africa to Latin America. But the core problem as it stands – as illustrated in Kenya and other places around the world – is that the bulk of this value does not go to the poor. Rather, fin-tech is very clearly designed to hoover up value and deposit it into the hands of a narrow global digital-financial elite that are the main forces behind the fin-tech revolution. Of course, this enormous wealth could be redirected towards Kenya’s poor population and reinvested locally, for example through community-owned financial institutions and financial cooperatives, but there would appear to be little time, sympathy, or political support for building such pro-poor institutions when so much wealth can be appropriated by so few so quickly in another way."

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#105
post #84

People seem to have a general distrust about the Indian government and the UPI system. There are certainly a lot of conspiracy theories floating around. The plain idea of UPI is that it is publicly funded digital infrastructure. The US has networks such as Mastercard, Visa, etc. These are privately run digital infrastructure that facilitate digital payments. UPI is publicly funded digital infrastructure. AFAIK it is…

Thank you for bringing this clarity. And as an Indian citizen I am glad we took this step towards building an independent payments infrastructure, given how critical a payments clearance system is to the functioning of a modern economy. I don't want other governments to hold us hostage through Visa's and Mastercard's where we are just one sanction away from economic meltdown. Just like what happened recently in Russi…

Absolutely, the US government has a long tradition of weaponizing US Dollar and SWIFT to cut off countries from global trade. This is a fact that has been happening ever since the petrodollar was invented. Governments all over the world, especially India, have realized this is a big vulnerability and a threat to their country's sovereignty. India, Brazil and several countries across the world have invested in their own infrastructure as they rightly should to keep their economic independence.

For those who don't know India has been on the receiving end of US sanctions for a variety of reasons. While the reasoning behind the sanctions has been long debated, it is plainly obvious from the Indian vantage point that economic independence is very critical for their survival.

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#106
post #84

People seem to have a general distrust about the Indian government and the UPI system. There are certainly a lot of conspiracy theories floating around. The plain idea of UPI is that it is publicly funded digital infrastructure. The US has networks such as Mastercard, Visa, etc. These are privately run digital infrastructure that facilitate digital payments. UPI is publicly funded digital infrastructure. AFAIK it is…

The fact that it's public infrastructure and has no transaction fees is the source of much of the negative press. Both Mastercard and Visa went complaining to the US govt about UPI and RuPay because they foresee their duopoly ending.

Correct. Public infrastructure can (but not usually is) run at a loss for the welfare of the citizens. That's the whole point of public infrastructure. MasterCard and Visa have been complaining for a _long_ time about this issue as it undercuts their profitability.

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. From what I understood, the Dutch iDeal system (which I love) might become a European standard. It doesn’t cover large parts of the world but I think the fees are not as “insane” as PayPal or systems like this.

> From what I understood, the Dutch iDeal system (which I love) might become a European standard. What can you tell me about iDeal's privacy aspects? Does it allow anonymous transactions (here it mght make sense to distinguish between - non-anonymous entity sends money to anonymous entity - anonymous entity sends money to non-anonymous entity - anonymous entity sends money to anonymous entity; "anonymous" is here to…

As far as I know only the Merchant and your account is known to iDeal, not what you buy.

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#108
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Walmart has observed a severe misalignment of incentives that has plagued the payments system in the United States for decades. Certain incumbents and large participants enjoy massive profits by stifling innovation in payments, ensuring that account access is limited to a small number of networks, and perpetuating barriers to entry for alternative solutions. Controlling this access allows the dominant players to ex…

They are ignoring the systemic manipulation of the entire market against people deemed "undesirable" or that are just poor. But well, they probably never noticed it.

[deleted]

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#110

[flagged]

In my ancestral village, before cashless payments the nearest bank was 5 miles away in the district/county headquarters. If you needed to take out cash or deposit a paycheck, you'd need to ride a bike or take a bus or walk over potholed roads to get to that bank which was staffed with lazy employees who'd take chai+nashta breaks all the time.

With the proliferation of cashless payment options, it's much easier now to deposit a paycheck or buy groceries in these small towns and villages.

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