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A digital payments revolution in India

economist.com

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Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it different from any digital payment? Many European countries and the US has been doing digital transactions for like 2 decades now. How was it not authoritarian then but suddenly when the Asian people do it, it's a way to track everything people does and not the simplest explanation which is it makes transactions easier?

As a Berliner: I would be fine to share my data and see ads if I get UPI in exchange

There are no ads. There aren't even transaction fees, for now.

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#92
post #6

When you pay a merchant $100 with your card they get about $97. When this $100 has exchanged hands 50 times only $15 remains. The bank owns the other $85. Cash is a hassle but it cuts out the middlemen. We need a unified payment system in western countries, but it's almost impossible given how much of a chokehold big banks have over our economy. Capitalism at its finest.

UPI has no dispute resolution (as of now). So if you pay with UPI to someone and have a dispute, good luck. You have to approach the Indian courts to get your money back, which, given the Indian justice system, is… difficult. By contrast, dispute resolution with cards is much easier. Also, I don’t recognise this 3% figure — not in all geographies. Eg Europe under PSD2 has 0.3% for credit cards, and 0.2% for debit car…

[deleted]

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#93
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> UPI has no dispute resolution (as of now) Not true. [1] [1]: https://www.npci.org.in/what-we-do/upi/dispute-redressal-mec...

The process you link to is Indian bureaucracy at its finest. It also focuses on disputes surrounding UPI payments, ie “I paid via UPI and the money didn’t arrive”. Look at the categories of disputes on that page. The “fraudulent transaction” is extremely narrowly scoped to fraudulent use of your UPI account. But by “dispute resolution”, most people in payments mean commercial disputes — “I paid for a chicken, you sen…

I use UPI daily.

1. In scenarios where UPI is replacing a cash transaction e.g., purchasing fruits from a fruit vendor on the street (just did it a few hours ago), the transaction is immediate. Disputes are settled exactly as how it would be done with a cash transaction i.e., discuss and settle with the vendor in situ.

India had a separate settlement mechanism called Cash-On-Delivery that was needed for companies like Amazon/FlipKart etc., to penetrate the ecommerce space before UPI came into being. Even Amazon does returns and refunds through their online/app-based customer service process.

2. In scenarios where UPI is replacing a credit card e.g., I order food through a food delivery app and an item is missing. The food delivery app provides a customer service option where they are able to resolve the issue (they could a. deliver the missing item at no charge, b. give me a cash coupon for the inconvenience that I can use on their app, c. refuse to resolve the issue). I haven't had a scenario where the service provider has refused to resolve the issue.

3. As far as fraud is concerned, a couple of months ago the local police visited our apartment complex for a brief meeting to educate people on frauds and safety. They focused on digital crimes and told us about the national helpline for cybercrime. [1] Residents can dial 1930 to reach the national cybercrime helpline to report crimes, including online frauds -- this also includes the QR code scams that you hear about in the media. They register the complaint and guide you with the process for recovering lost funds. I haven't done this myself, but what the officer explained is that based on the transaction details, the national cybercrime control center coordinates with the participating banks on both sides of the transaction to immediately freeze funds. You can also take the complaint number to the nearest police station and get an FIR (First Information Report) filed to get the fraudsters criminally prosecuted.

4. In scenarios involving a buyer-seller dispute, there is the consumer protection laws where the consumer can directly file suit against the provider in a consumer court. These are special courts (separate from the civil and criminal courts) and are very effective in protecting consumer rights. This works for all types of consumer disputes about service/product issues.

This would be the last resort for protecting consumer rights even in cases where a credit card company declines to handle a consumer's complaint on technicalities and is not just for UPI. These courts are at the district level in all states. [2]

People in the west and other developed countries have a lot more of their digital transactions occuring on credit/debit cards and are comparing that with UPI. While what UPI is doing overlaps with a lot of that, it also is more than that in enabling micropayments and p2p payments. So, that is of value for the average Indian resident.

[1]: https://cybercrime.gov.in/Webform/Helpline.aspx

[2]: http://ncdrc.nic.in/districtlist.html

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#94
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mass surveillance, yay! Fed ... what? Anyway, do not worry, your hopes will be fulfilled very soon in the US with the arrival of the digital dollar. More control and surveillance, how delighting!

Less control, if anything. Remember how credit card companies blocked WikiLeaks and Pornhub?

How could that be less control when it will be in fact a centralized database? Remember how much trouble it was for the Canadian government to freeze the accounts of the Canadian truckers? Now it will just be a request to an "admin"...

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#95
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less control, if anything. Remember how credit card companies blocked WikiLeaks and Pornhub?

How could that be less control when it will be in fact a centralized database? Remember how much trouble it was for the Canadian government to freeze the accounts of the Canadian truckers? Now it will just be a request to an "admin"...

Is it really centralized?

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#96
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Walmart is already preparing to adopt FedNow payments, and submitted comments during the public comment period. https://www.pymnts.com/news/retail/2023/walmart-hints-at-ear... https://www.federalreserve.gov/SECRS/2019/December/20191227/...

> Walmart has observed a severe misalignment of incentives that has plagued the payments system in the United States for decades. Certain incumbents and large participants enjoy massive profits by stifling innovation in payments, ensuring that account access is limited to a small number of networks, and perpetuating barriers to entry for alternative solutions. Controlling this access allows the dominant players to ex…

They are ignoring the systemic manipulation of the entire market against people deemed "undesirable" or that are just poor.

But well, they probably never noticed it.

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#97

[flagged]

How is it different from any digital payment? Many European countries and the US has been doing digital transactions for like 2 decades now. How was it not authoritarian then but suddenly when the Asian people do it, it's a way to track everything people does and not the simplest explanation which is it makes transactions easier?

> but suddenly when the Asian people do it

As a "brown person", I resent this attempt at weaponizing racism just for the benefit of making your argument. Not only does it make your argument look petty and weak, but it actually damages the real efforts to battle true racism in the US. Please stop.

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#98
The comments in this thread lack some context. Prior to UPI, the government ensured that anyone with a mobile phone, even just a feature phone, could open a bank account.

This enabled direct transfer of subsidies to eligible citizens.

An earlier PM Rajiv Gandhi had admitted that only 15% of benefits actually reached the intended recipients, the rest being consumed in overheads and corruption.

UPI ensures that even people in remote locations can make payments without having to walk long distances to withdraw theirbcash from a bank. Villages don't have ATMs.

It's more like a debit card than anything else, but you use a phone instead of a card.

As for tracking fears, all debit/credit card transactions are logged so UPI is no different. If you want to use cash, you can do so, but you'd be surprised how many vendors prefer UPI as they don't have to worry about change.

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#99
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The process you link to is Indian bureaucracy at its finest. It also focuses on disputes surrounding UPI payments, ie “I paid via UPI and the money didn’t arrive”. Look at the categories of disputes on that page. The “fraudulent transaction” is extremely narrowly scoped to fraudulent use of your UPI account. But by “dispute resolution”, most people in payments mean commercial disputes — “I paid for a chicken, you sen…

I use UPI daily. 1. In scenarios where UPI is replacing a cash transaction e.g., purchasing fruits from a fruit vendor on the street (just did it a few hours ago), the transaction is immediate. Disputes are settled exactly as how it would be done with a cash transaction i.e., discuss and settle with the vendor in situ. India had a separate settlement mechanism called Cash-On-Delivery that was needed for companies lik…

I don’t dispute most of what you say. I’ll only say that you’re a little optimistic re (3) and (4).

Speak to regular (not well connected) people who’ve been through the justice system. It’s not pretty.

But then maybe you’re lucky enough to live in a state with super responsive police and courts. After all, a lot of this stuff is a state subject and can vary by state.

But the stories of hellish experiences seem to come from all around the country.

Re: A digital payments revolution in India

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it different from any digital payment? Many European countries and the US has been doing digital transactions for like 2 decades now. How was it not authoritarian then but suddenly when the Asian people do it, it's a way to track everything people does and not the simplest explanation which is it makes transactions easier?

India outlawed the usage of any bill larger than the equivalent of a $US 5 (500-rupee and up) in 2016, which was intended to force people into the digital payments system. This is much more coercive than the Euro-US approach. For an overview and pro/con arguments in the global government-led war on cash: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/021816/why-g... It's also an attempt to collect a percentage of al…

Wrong. An older series of currency notes were replaced by newer notes. Nothing was outlawed.
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