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People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

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Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#81

Post by hiatus »

atchoo wrote: post #68
niea_11 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another relevant quote by David foster wallace : The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will e…

Should people quote DFW as an authority given his suicide? Using metaphors of physical reality for psychological states can make it falsely appear more immutable that it is. It is possible to escape the burning buildings of the mind and knowing that you have agency over your ideas can be an essential part of the reframing/rethinking/challenging that can free you from suffering. Letting people believe they are in a si…

> Should people quote DFW as an authority given his suicide?

A very good writer who committed suicide is probably a great person from whose experience we might learn, especially since they expressed what might be their internal anguish so eloquently.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#82

Post by stefantalpalaru »

Fricken wrote: post #19
attemptone wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keeping in line with the style of that comment: No, they're not.

Life is suffering. It's one of the 4 Noble truths of Buddhism. Ancient knowledge.

[dead]

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#83

Post by Accacin »

theowaway44 wrote: post #56
thr-nrg wrote: post #37

I fully intend to kill myself eventually. The idea that I should prolong my life past the point where I get dementia, a degenerative disease, or just plain old age where I can't stand up or whipe my ass is repugnant enough that I can't understand people who want me to suffer until doctors finally stop being able to put me back together. Much better to die cheaply with a wonderful cocktail of opiates while watching a…

As I'm getting older (mid 40s), I have a different view now than before. I've seen people die in real life, and it was horrific. Even in hospital beds with morphine drips. I don't want to die in agony, or slowly suffocating as many do. I'll end it before it goes too far. I think more people should actually go to hospitals and see how real people die, instead of the comforting movie version where the family is gathere…

And even in the "comforting" movie version, it's still different in real life where they start gasping for breath. I at least thought the person was in pain or suffering somehow. (I did ask the Dr. that came to give us the death certificate and apparently it's because either the brain has shut down or and the body is still trying to perform it's duty or vice-versa and there's no pain or suffering just a part of passing away).

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#84

Post by fancyfish »

candiddevmike wrote: post #23

Related, is it difficult all over the US to find mental health resources? Wait times for counselors and therapists are months+. Additionally, insurance seems to not cover mental health stuff well if at all, if you're lucky to get an appointment it seems you're paying out of pocket.

Yes, many (if not most?) providers stopped taking insurance for various reasons. The rates provided by insurers are a fraction of the rates they can get charging out of pocket. And insurers try to shorten therapy sessions, or ask why a patient still needs therapy, etc.

I don’t know why mental health specifically has these issues out of all the medical professions though.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#85

Post by haswell »

bowsamic wrote: post #50
zozbot234 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We may have not experienced prolonged pain, but we all have experienced suffering. Life itself is synonymous with suffering, for all but those few master sages who have been successful in conquering all of their cravings and reaching the utmost of equanimity. Suicide itself is virtually always a highly disordered act, that only demonstrates how deeply the person resorting to it is mired in her cravings. While some ki…

> Life itself is synonymous with suffering What? No it isn't. Just because some guy wearing orange robes told you it is, doesn't mean it's true. I have been through a lot of depression and I would never accept such a statement alone: life is no more synonymous with suffering than it is with peace and joy

The Buddhist point of view on this is closer to “the default state of life is unsatisfactoriness”. The word “suffering” tends to elicit thoughts about pain and distracts from the myriad of other ways humans “suffer” daily.

> life is no more synonymous with suffering than it is with peace and joy

I’d argue that by default, life is closer to “unsatisfactoriness” than peace and joy, due largely to the evolutionary drives that make us strive for more. While you may be fortunate enough to experience the latter, it comes only through deliberate effort and a successful navigation of life’s basic survival requirements. Living in a modern society shields most people from the more persistent existential suffering of our ancestors.

Hunger, thirst and bodily breakdown are guaranteed. Peace and joy are optional, but what make life worth living. But it is seeing “suffering” for what it is - a mental state that we have the power to change - that makes living a peaceful and joyous life possible.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#86

Post by Xelynega »

atchoo wrote: post #68
niea_11 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another relevant quote by David foster wallace : The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will e…

Should people quote DFW as an authority given his suicide? Using metaphors of physical reality for psychological states can make it falsely appear more immutable that it is. It is possible to escape the burning buildings of the mind and knowing that you have agency over your ideas can be an essential part of the reframing/rethinking/challenging that can free you from suffering. Letting people believe they are in a si…

I think to portray it otherwise would be to lose the message, and the fact that Wallace commited suicide should give credibility that the thoughts he wrote beforehand were those of an eventually suicidal man.

In my opinion, without the immutability of the situation the metaphor loses its meaning. People don't kill themselves because they feel they're in a situation they can get out of. I think it does more harm for those with suicidal ideation to ignore their feelings rather than validate them.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#87

Post by Accacin »

dazc wrote: post #34
giantg2 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!" Are there people who actually yell this? It seems pretty obvious why they're jumping.

It could be considered a natural instinct to do this? I once encountered a guy who was thinking of jumping off a bridge and I said a lot of stupid but well meaning things in an attempt to dissuade him. It got to the point where I realized everything I was saying was just making him more determined to do it. Luckily, I managed to flag down a passing ambulance and the paramedics onboard turned out to be a lot more skil…

At least you tried my friend, that's a lot more than some would choose to do :)

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#88

Post by brazzy »

thr-nrg wrote: post #29
sylware wrote: post #3

Yep, or you'll get all depressed young adults seeking state assisted suicide.

So long as it's not state mandated, more power to them. If they feel 50 more years are not something they want why should we force them to?

Because the vast majority of them eventually (often pretty soon) change their mind about it.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#89

Post by Fricken »

jdietrich wrote: post #48
Fricken wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Life is suffering. It's one of the 4 Noble truths of Buddhism. Ancient knowledge.

The first noble truth posits that dukkha (suffering) is a characteristic of existence in the realm of rebirth . The second, third and fourth noble truths posit that escape from dukkha (and therefore escape from the cycle of death and rebirth) is possible. "Life is suffering" is a shallow misinterpretation of Buddhist theology; Buddhists believe that all suffering has an identifiable cause and a known remedy.

All the big religions offer up some sort of escape plan as part of the sales pitch.

I don't believe one can avoid suffering. You can however choose your suffering. You can suffer in the service of something greater. Or you can suffer meaninglessly, but you'll suffer one way or the other.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#90

Post by brazzy »

Fricken wrote: post #36
jebarker wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not knowledge and they're truths only in name, it's philosophy.

Casual observation bears out the same truths. What living thing doesn't suffer?

Nearly all living things do not suffer constantly, which disproves your original statement.
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